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Haughey, Charles J.

Thursday, 26 May 1966

Dáil Éireann Debate
Vol. 222 Nbr. 15


Committee on Finance. - Vote 38 — Agriculture (Resumed).

That is incorrect.More Button

Does the Deputy really believe that?More Button

That with better fertiliser and better grass, none of those farmers could carry an extra cow or two cows?More Button

The Deputy is cheating. Compare average with average.More Button

The Deputy is a “hooky” mathematician.More Button

The Deputy is the “hookiest” statistician I ever heard.More Button

He should not be blaming Nasser.More Button

A shilling a gallon.More Button

It was raised by 10/- this year.More Button

We increased it this year by 10/- per barrel.More Button

The Deputy has a terrible “down” on the Egyptians.More Button

So many Deputies have spoken on so many subjects of agriculture during this debate that it would not be possible for me to reply to them in an itemised way. What I should like to do is to reply in...More Button

I do not think I could do any better than to take as my text the words said of me by Deputy Tierney who spoke very early on. He said, in effect, that I was doing my best but that it was not really...More Button

I am inclined to agree with Deputy Tierney in that remark. The task which confronts me, indeed any Minister for Agriculture, is of such vast proportions and the problems are so intractable that I ...More Button

What has to be done is to try to get a whole community, very diversified in its form, moving forward in a certain direction. It seems to me that this is both a physical and a psychological problem...More Button

First, I want to claim that we have a progressive approach to agriculture and its problems and possibilities. In recent years we have introduced many new schemes, adopted many new approaches and m...More Button

I readily admit that current developments represent a setback to that policy but I want to assure the House that I have no intention of abandoning it, because I believe it is the only way possible ...More Button

When I hear farmers or their spokesmen saying angrily or impatiently or in any other way that some scheme is of no benefit to the small farmer, I realise then there has been a breakdown in communic...More Button

I have said recently I am prepared to sit down and discuss in complete detail with farmers' representatives every scheme we have in operation to show what each scheme is costing, who is availing of...More Button

In that connection I want to mention we have had very useful meetings with the Western Regional Agricultural Council since it was established. In the course of these meetings, we covered a wide ra...More Button

I want to say a brief word at this point about farmer unity. This is a subject about which I am deeply concerned. I deliberately refrain from talking about it in public to the greatest possible ex...More Button

I want to say a word about the general economic framework inside which our agriculture has to operate and the overall approach we have to our economic policy. As the House knows, the Government's ...More Button

The Common Agriculture Policy which is being introduced in the EEC involves a managed market for agriculture. Producers will be assured of a fair return for their output. Membership of the Communi...More Button

I said before, and I want to repeat, that the Free Trade Area Agreement which we negotiated with Britain provides a substantial measure of opportunity for Irish farmers. The arrangements made are ...More Button

Over 30 per cent of our people are engaged in it and it produces over 20 per cent of our total national product. It generates some two-thirds of our total exports.More Button

Naturally, the Government are acutely concerned about the future development of this fundamentally important industry.More Button

The development of our agriculture is, of course, bound up with the growth of the economy as a whole. It has been repeated time and again but, I suppose, it is no harm to mention once more, that a...More Button

I learned that when I was a student of economics at school.More Button

The trouble with the Fine Gael Party is that they cannot come out of the past. They are hopelessly embedded in a past which is sterile, conservative——More Button

It is very necessary that the Government's plans for agricultural development should be included in any national expansion programme, and ours have been. I want to suggest that these plans are pre...More Button

Some of these targets of ours are well on their way towards realisation. Our broad aim was to increase total agricultural output by approximately one-third between 1963 and 1970. We wanted to achi...More Button

The question, of course, is, how were we to bring about this expansion? The plan, I suggest, takes account of the situation as we find it both at home and abroad. It indicates the general policie...More Button

I am afraid it is fundamentally true of our situation and the peculiar conditions that seem to affect the primary producers the world over that the very best efforts of the farmer to help himself w...More Button

The second category includes all the measures which the Government take to support prices and to try to safeguard the farmer's income and his investment from the hazards which the inherent instabil...More Button

These are the two sets of measures which we operate to try to ensure that the targets for agriculture set in the Second Programme for Economic Expansion are achieved. They are expensive and...More Button

In this context of policy objectives, I want very emphatically to state, in case there should be any doubt about it, that it is this Government's aim that agricultural production should be based o...More Button

It was this Government who set up the committee that produced the first comprehensive report ever seen in this country on the problems of the small farmer——More Button

——and this Government are acting energetically on the recommendations contained in that report. The 12 pilot areas which are going ahead in the west of Ireland are producing good resul...More Button

I intend to work out and launch such a scheme using the experience already gained and which is being gained still in the pilot areas. I do not want to rush our fences in this regard and I do not t...More Button

We hope to get a carefully worked out practical plan which will be realistically related to the actual circumstances of the Irish small farmer and we have included in this year's Budget a sum of &p...More Button

One of the troubles about agriculture is that when you try to do something constructive and forward-looking you will always get someone who, for Party political reasons, will misinterpret and sneer...More Button

There have been a number of statements made in this House and elsewhere which seem to have a sort of hypnotic effect. They are repeated ad nauseam. The latest statement of this sort which...More Button

A random sample.More Button

No, but the analysis we made of the heifer scheme is exact. It is not based on a sample. The number of herds in the country is 237,000 and of these 120,000 have benefited from the scheme. Of the ...More Button

You can argue until the cows come home, but the men with five cows or less, constituted 54 per cent of the applicants for the heifer scheme. Basically the scheme is for the cow herd owner and mor...More Button

(Interruptions.)More Button

The men with ten cows or less in their herds coming into the scheme got over £3,600,000 out of the total of £5¾ million which has been paid to date. It seems to me that that effectivel...More Button

I have given the Deputy the figures. It is not a question of denying anything or not denying it. I am not emotional about this. I am giving the statistics. There is a total of 237,000 herd owner...More Button

They could also have a yacht in the Mediterranean but all I am concerned with is that they had——More Button

The scheme has been the most successful single incentive scheme ever introduced into Irish agriculture and for the first time we have broken through this half-century old barrier of a cow populatio...More Button

It has also been suggested by some of the critics of the scheme that the increase in cow numbers has been achieved by the retention of old cows in the herd. I had a very careful analysis of the sc...More Button

I said that the Deputy's interpretation of them was very misleading. It is very easy to misinterpret statistics if you are dishonest.More Button

I am glad to be able to tell the House that this examination, which was carried out in a completely objective and impartial manner, indicates that the scheme was in fact a great success and was ins...More Button

The fact is that this scheme has been particularly successful. I also want to say that there is no suggestion of this scheme being suddenly and abruptly terminated. Any alteration in it, or any dec...More Button

This is an argument which is advanced. It is suggested that a farmer who was already a good farmer and was stocking his farm to the maximum would not benefit from the scheme.More Button

I am not sure that there is such a farmer in the country.More Button

Wait a minute. I am not sure that with modern methods and so on, any farmer cannot increase the stocking of his land. Deputies would be saying to me that every farm is at its maximum possible car...More Button

I want to deal now with some aspects of our policy related to the different types of farming which we have. I suppose in this connection I should take the dairy farmer first because to a large ex...More Button

Dairy farmers also vary greatly in the size and scale of their operations. This makes it very difficult to deal with the income position of the dairy farmer and apply any measures which are uniform...More Button

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Donegal Black Scab Area.

I am advised that curtailment of the scheduled area as suggested would not be safe.More Button

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - County Donegal Pilot Lights.

No approach has been made to me about the provision of pilot lights at Bunagee Pier, but I understand that a light is being provided on the pier by Donegal County Council and that it will be in ope...More Button

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Garda Depot Swimming Pool.

I am informed by the consultant architect that leaks in the pool were located and were sealed off in a temporary manner for the purpose of tests which have now been satisfactorily completed. The r...More Button

As regards the handball alleys, the floor of one of them has been repaired and the defect in the other, which is very slight, will be repaired shortly.More Button

The contractor's.More Button

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Fermoy Telephone Exchange.

The situation has improved a lot in Dublin.More Button

Committee on Finance - Vote 38 — Agriculture (Resumed).

Before Questions. I had mentioned the ICMSA proposal of a two-tier price system for creamery milk and in my opening speech on the Estimate I also referred to this and indicated that in my view the...More Button

Deputy Dillon did not say a great deal. He asked me not to dismiss it out of hand, if I remember correctly.More Button

I have a very great deal of sympathy with the idea behind the proposal which, as I understand it, is intended to do something particularly for the small and medium-sized dairy farmer but I do not t...More Button

In the meantime, I think it is necessary to do something about milk prices. The real difficulty, of course, has not received — I did not expect it would — much of an airing in the Hous...More Button

The trouble is that there is a very wide gap between the price that can be obtained for our products in export markets and the price we would like to pay at home for creamery milk. If the price of...More Button

It is a net 7d. The cost is estimated this year at about £12.5 million. That compares with £4.7 million about five years ago and £2.7 million ten years ago. I mention those fig...More Button

Considering our particular situation, the volume of assistance the Government are making available to the dairying industry at present is considerable. I do not want to pretend for one moment that ...More Button

However, I do think that it is necessary, as I said, to do something about milk prices at the present time. What I intend to do is to increase the basic price of milk all round immediately by 2d a...More Button

I am not finished yet. I am going to deal with a whole lot of other matters. Do not get excited.More Button

Better than your bob a gallon, anyway, for five years.More Button

May I not make my own speech in my own way?More Button

That 2d a gallon on the basic price of creamery milk and 1d extra on quality milk is, I suppose, more than the Fine Gael Party ever did for milk in their whole existence.More Button

Deputy L'Estrange and Deputy Clinton both specifically asked me to make this announcement this evening and when I am making it they are complaining.More Button

Again, I want to give Deputies an indication of the size of this problem from the point of view of the Exchequer. I want to mention that the increase of 2d a gallon will cost us £3.6 million...More Button

I propose, also, to increase the price to the liquid milk producer by a corresponding 2d a gallon straight away and this increase will have to be passed on to the consumer later on in the form of ...More Button

No, it does not come into operation at that rate at all.More Button

In approaching this problem of farm income I have to have regard——More Button

I have had regard to the fact that there are many different types of farmers other than the dairy farmer and I have sought anxiously ways and means of improving their particular position and at the...More Button

I intend to introduce a scheme whereby every pig producer will be paid a grant of £5 per farrowed sow subject to a maximum number per farmer of five farrowed sows. This scheme will last for ...More Button

It is an effort on our part to arrest this decline in pig production. This seems to me to be the best way of achieving that. The cost of the scheme for the 12 months will be somewhere in the regio...More Button

——and help us to get the output of pigs moving upward again and at the same time, as I have said, contribute to the income of the pig producer.More Button

(Interruptions.)More Button

The cattle trade, of course, is closely allied to the dairy industry and is of fundamental importance in the economy. I readily admit that the situation for the cattle producer has been difficult ...More Button

I do not think so.More Button

As I was saying, the coming into operation on 1st July of the reduction of the waiting period to two months and the extension of the British guarantee payment system to 25,000 tons of our carcase m...More Button

The maximum loan to any one farmer will be £200. This scheme will only last until 30th September this year. I hope farmers will avail of it to the maximum extent possible so that it will he...More Button

I understand that there was some shortage of ammonium nitrate, but how exactly this shortage came about I do not know.More Button

Deputy Cluskey asked about the operation of the extension of the fatstock guarantee payment system in Britain to our carcase meat trade to the extent of 25,000 tons. As Deputies know, the Free Tra...More Button

Some Deputies mentioned that there had been losses, particularly among dairy farmers who lost cows because of the very severe winter and spring and because of the prevalence of a number of diseases...More Button

In connection with the cattle and meat trade generally also the establishment of a meat marketing board has been adverted to in different quarters from time to time. I feel there is a very good c...More Button

The position of the sheep farmer should also improve considerably under the operation of the Free Trade Area Agreement. Arising out of the arrangements which will come into operation, we have deci...More Button

I propose to introduce a completely new scheme the purpose of which will be to try to improve the output of mountain and hill sheep farms. The main purpose will be to try to get the lambs off the ...More Button

The scheme has been recommended to me by a small but very expert group. I have had it examined in the Department and I am assured that it can be administered. The purpose of it is twofold—to...More Button

These three things— sheep, pigs and milk—are of particular importance to small farmers throughout the country but they are especially important to our small farmers in the west of Irela...More Button

The situation of the tillage farmer——More Button

Yes.More Button

This certainly is something we have discussed and thought a lot about. It was something I was keen to do at Glencolumbkille. But I am not satisfied that the economics of it are right. I think mos...More Button

The situation of the tillage farmer has been referred to by some Deputies. I want to agree he has had a very tough time this year and last year. Things have been especially difficult for him this...More Button

At the same time I recognised that one of the difficulties of getting up the wheat acreage was in the marketing system. I have tried to devise a system which will be acceptable to the wheat farmer...More Button

I think there is a case now—I shall almost certainly have it done—for carrying out an examination in depth of our whole grain policy. It is very disappointing in spite of these price i...More Button

We have also included in the general category of the tillage farmer the potato grower and the grower of oats. I recognise, particularly in regard to oats and potatoes, that they are the two areas ...More Button

Another very real factor in the economy of the tillage farmer is his costs. This is also something that will have to be taken into account. In general, the item of cost which would cause most con...More Button

I do not think we can contemplate a continuance year after year of an increase in rates on the farmer without any regard to his capacity to pay them. I want to assure Deputies that this problem is...More Button

To decide to derate the first £20 in valuation or to derate all agricultural land under a valuation of £20 is a very attractive proposition and one that would commend itself to me. Unf...More Button

I would like to say a word generally about the overall farm income position and to make the position of the Government clear in this regard. We indicated definitely and precisely at the time of th...More Button

At Budget time we hoped that the three per cent guide line would be accepted and this was taken into account in our projections of farm incomes. These projections have been very adversely affected...More Button

This review has taken place. We have not agreed on the situation as we find it but on our side we estimate that the original projection which we made will have to be modified downwards by about &p...More Button

We estimated that global farm incomes this year would amount to £151 million. This was the figure which we agreed with the National Farmers Association this year. We have now had a further ...More Button

We think there is a case and a necessity to increase farm incomes at this time by direct Government action. It is difficult to be precise about these matters and to establish very precisely by what...More Button

I am coming to that.More Button

The effect of these measures which I have announced will be to increase farm income by somewhere in the region of £5.3 million to £5.5 million in a full year.More Button

This is something we are looking into. I do recognise that something should be done about the position of the poultry producer from the point of view of feeding stuffs.More Button

I have just announced to this House positive measures which will have the effect of increasing farm income by up to £5.5 million in a full year. I am not looking into anything in that regard...More Button

Some Deputies have asked how this increase in the basic price of milk will be paid for.More Button

The money will have to be found by taxation. It is my intention, in regard to the price of milk——More Button

I have dealt with them.More Button

It is my intention to offset to some extent the cost to the Exchequer of the increase in the creamery milk price by a moderate increase in the price of butter. The price of butter——More Button

——has not increased now for a period of over six years. I do not think it is unfair to ask the consumer to pay a little extra for his butter so that the creamery milk supplier may get ...More Button

I knew this would happen. I knew that, when I made this announcement, Opposition Deputies would urge me to give more to the farmers and that as soon as paying the cost came up for consideration, t...More Button

I know that Deputy L'Estrange, Deputy Clinton and Deputy Donegan, when the time comes, will vote cheerfully and enthusiastically for the taxation measures which will be necessary to meet this bill.More Button

Deputy Tracey, a Labour Deputy—and I admire his courage—speaking in this debate, asked for an increase in price for the creamery milk supplier and went on to say that he recognised and...More Button

Deputy Treacy was prepared to face up to it. He was probably the most honest Deputy to speak in the House.More Button

Deputy Dunne weeps for everybody, day in, day out. He weeps for the poor Ballyfermot person who has to pay a differential rent——More Button

I have to achieve some sort of balance in this matter. As I have said, the creamery milk supplier and the liquid milk producer should now get an increase in price for their product. In regard to t...More Button

——particularly, as I have said, as the price of butter to the consumer has not gone up for a period of over six years and also as the price of butter in Dublin and elsewhere varies from...More Button

You will see.More Button

It will be announced.More Button

They are not.More Button

It was my intention to tell the House that I do not yet know precisely what the necessary increase will be——More Button

——but certainly it will not be more than 3d a lb.More Button

It cannot be 6d.More Button

I have said there are a great many calculations to be made in regard to this matter. This whole question of a price for milk, and so on, is a very complicated administrative business, but it is no...More Button

Why are the Deputies getting excited about this? I have no intention of evading it.More Button

I deny that.More Button

I deny that. We indicated at the time of the Budget that it was our intention to move to increase farm income should a situation evolve in which this was necessary.More Button

In pursuance of that undertaking at Budget time, I am now announcing these measures to improve farm income and these measures are being taken as a result of that undertaking in the Budget, and for ...More Button

No.More Button

Through increased taxation.More Button

That is not my affair.More Button

Not at all; certainly not.More Button

This is the Deputy's first appearance during the whole debate so he might as well ask a few questions.More Button

(Interruptions.)More Button

He takes a few himself.More Button

I suggest the Deputy is entitled to ask only questions of fact.More Button

The measures I have announced to increase farm income by over £5 million have been decided upon by the Government in pursuance of their undertaking to review the whole situation if the projec...More Button

Oh, yes, it had.More Button

I did say so. I said it in my opening statement. I said I had asked my Department to undertake a review of the position as a matter of urgency.More Button

We have, I think, an overwhelming necessity to meet our bacon quota on the British market and, if we are ever to get this business on to a sound footing, we must, I think, keep up a regular, system...More Button

Certainly.More Button

The beet situation again is a bit of a problem. As the Deputy knows, the price paid to the farmer for sugar beet has been increased substantially on a couple of occasions in recent years.More Button

It is agreed between the Beetgrowers' Association and the Irish Sugar Company. The increases have been of a fairly reasonable order in recent years. Despite that the acreage is not reaching the r...More Button

In that regard we have had a very considerable success in the Tuam area through the advisory services.More Button

Good for the Deputy —well done. The Deputy is a very responsible Deputy.More Button

The total cost——More Button

I shall give the Deputy a full year first. In a full year the total cost will be about £4.3 million.More Button

No, altogether.More Button

Yes, £4.3 million gross.More Button

I said it would not be greater than 3d but 2d per lb. on butter would bring in about £400,000. Threepence per lb. would bring in about £650,000, allowing for a slight decrease in consum...More Button

I am sorry. I mixed up two figures. The £650,000 would be for the remainder of this year. The £4.3 million refers to a full year. In a full year 3d per lb. on butter would bring in ...More Button

Yes.More Button

The basic 2d costs about £3.6 million. The quality costs about £800,000.More Button

Twopence per gallon in each case.More Button

That has already been considered.More Button

For whom is the Deputy pleading now? He was pleading for the farmers when he was speaking in the debate.More Button

Face up to your responsibilities.More Button

(Interruptions.)More Button