Houses of the Oireachtas

All parliamentary debates are now being published on our new website. The publication of debates on this website will cease in December 2018.

Go to oireachtas.ie

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Pension of CIE Chairman.

Wednesday, 15 June 1966

Dáil Éireann Debate
Vol. 223 No. 4

First Page Previous Page Page of 31 Next Page Last Page

2.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan: Information on Oliver J. Flanagan Zoom on Oliver J. Flanagan asked the Minister for Transport and Power whether Dr. Andrews received any pension and other emoluments from Bord na Móna and the ESB; and, if so, what amounts.

3.

Mr. Coughlan: Information on Stephen Coughlan Zoom on Stephen Coughlan asked the Minister for Transport and Power what pension and emoluments have been paid to Dr. Andrews for his services from Bord na Móna and the ESB.

Minister for Transport and Power (Mr. Childers): Information on Erskine Hamilton Childers Zoom on Erskine Hamilton Childers I propose, with your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, to take Questions Nos. 2 and 3 together.

The pension of £3,080 and the gratuity of £8,213 which will become payable to Dr. Andrews on his retirement from CIE on 7th October, 1966, are calculated on a total of 40 years public service, commencing in September, 1926 and terminating in October, 1966, including service with the ESB, the Civil Service, as Managing Director of Bord na Móna and Chairman of [522] CIE. No gratuity or pension is payable to him by any of the undertakings other than CIE.

The superannuation scheme in question (Presentation No. 5586) was laid before each House of the Oireachtas in June, 1960, in accordance with the provisions of the Transport Act, 1959, under which it was open to either House to annul the scheme by resolution. No such resolution was moved in either House.

Mr. S. Dunne: Information on Seán Dunne Zoom on Seán Dunne Are we to take it that, in addition to the details provided as to the munificent pension and the lump sum given to this ex-public official, he will continue to enjoy free travel facilities by road or rail or, alternatively, by a chauffeur-driven Rolls, as heretofore?

Mr. Lindsay: Information on Patrick James Lindsay Zoom on Patrick James Lindsay An Austin Princess.

Mr. Childers: Information on Erskine Hamilton Childers Zoom on Erskine Hamilton Childers I do not know the regulations with regard to his future privileges in CIE. He did not have a Rolls. If the Deputy wishes to start an attack on this very wonderful man who created Bord na Móna and gave permanent employment to 5,000 people in this country, my reply is that if a Labour Government were in office and could find a man of the calibre of Dr. Andrews, who could succeed in creating entirely new industries employing 5,000 people, they would be very willing to grant him a gratuity and a pension at this level irrespective of his later service to CIE during which he saved the taxpayers between £1 million and £2 million a year.

Mr. L'Estrange: Information on Gerald L'Estrange Zoom on Gerald L'Estrange You should give Paddy McGilligan £20,000, so, for starting the ESB.

Mr. S. Dunne: Information on Seán Dunne Zoom on Seán Dunne Is the Minister inviting an attack upon Dr. Andrews?

Mr. Childers: Information on Erskine Hamilton Childers Zoom on Erskine Hamilton Childers No, but the implication is there.

Mr. S. Dunne: Information on Seán Dunne Zoom on Seán Dunne I am merely expressing the views of the vast majority of the people of this country on this act by the Government.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Patrick Hogan Zoom on Patrick Hogan That does not arise.

[523]Mr. S. Dunne: Information on Seán Dunne Zoom on Seán Dunne Furthermore, is the Minister seriously suggesting to this House that the public official referred to created any of these industries himself and is responsible for the employment of the men in them? His record in Bord na Móna and his treatment of the men employed there does not stand up to examination. He starved the men out of their huts.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan: Information on Oliver J. Flanagan Zoom on Oliver J. Flanagan Is it a fact that two pensions are being paid to Mr. Andrews in recognition of his long and faithful service to Fianna Fáil as an employment agent, for Fianna Fáil, and Fianna Fáil only?

Mr. Childers: Information on Erskine Hamilton Childers Zoom on Erskine Hamilton Childers This is entirely in accordance with Civil Service procedure. Perhaps the Deputy would like me to give an account of the payments paid to Mr. Courtney, the former chairman of CIE.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Childers: Information on Erskine Hamilton Childers Zoom on Erskine Hamilton Childers You will hear it whether you like it or not.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan: Information on Oliver J. Flanagan Zoom on Oliver J. Flanagan Is it not a fact that this man devoted all his life to providing employment for Fianna Fáil touts? This is a national disgrace.

Mr. Childers: Information on Erskine Hamilton Childers Zoom on Erskine Hamilton Childers The Deputy is going to hear me whether he likes it or not. Mr. Courtney, the former chairman of CIE, received a pension in accordance with Civil Service regulations. That pension was £1,750 a year for 31 years of service. If there had been 40 years of service, the pension would have been £2,330 and at the then value of money, it would amount to £2,800 today. In addition, he received a gratuity of £8,000, exactly the same as in this case.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Lindsay: Information on Patrick James Lindsay Zoom on Patrick James Lindsay He was a qualified man, a qualified engineer.

Mr. Coughlan: Information on Stephen Coughlan Zoom on Stephen Coughlan I am entitled to ask the Minister if there is a situation now prevailing whereby this alleged great civil servant, who was an OC many years ago, now holds two jobs. Is he still chairman of CIE as well as being chairman of Telefís Éireann?

[524]Mr. Casey: Information on Seán Casey Zoom on Seán Casey Might I ask, without any heat at all, if the Minister can explain to the House and to the people who are looking for an explanation how he reconciles the payment of this pension and lump sum to Dr. Andrews at a time when rail workers, bus workers and road freight workers with from 40 to 45 years service are enjoying, if one can use the word, pensions ranging from 12/6 to 30/- a week? The Minister owes it to himself and certainly to the House to explain how he can reconcile the pension and gratuity being paid to Mr. Andrews with the miserable pittances being doled out to men who served on the railways, on the buses and in the road freight section for periods of from 40 to 45 years.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Patrick Hogan Zoom on Patrick Hogan This is a statement by way of question.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Coughlan: Information on Stephen Coughlan Zoom on Stephen Coughlan Can I get a reply to my question? Does this man now hold two positions?

Mr. Childers: Information on Erskine Hamilton Childers Zoom on Erskine Hamilton Childers Mr. Courtney was left on as a director of CIE at £500 a year.

Mr. Coughlan: Information on Stephen Coughlan Zoom on Stephen Coughlan Answer my question. Does he hold two positions?

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Patrick Hogan Zoom on Patrick Hogan I call Question No. 4.

Mr. Coughlan: Information on Stephen Coughlan Zoom on Stephen Coughlan I want a reply to my supplementary question.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Patrick Hogan Zoom on Patrick Hogan I have called Question No. 4. The Deputy will resume his seat.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Patrick Hogan Zoom on Patrick Hogan The Deputy will resume his seat or leave the House.

Mr. Coughlan: Information on Stephen Coughlan Zoom on Stephen Coughlan I want an answer to my question. Is he chairman of two boards or is he not? We are going to make an issue of this. Can I get an answer to my question? The answer is “yes” or “no”.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Patrick Hogan Zoom on Patrick Hogan I will have to name Deputy Coughlan to the House if he persists.

[525]Mr. S. Dunne: Information on Seán Dunne Zoom on Seán Dunne Deputy Coughlan is quite entitled to get an answer to his question.

Dr. O'Connell: Information on John F. O'Connell Zoom on John F. O'Connell Is Deputy Coughlan entitled to a reply?

Mr. O.J. Flanagan: Information on Oliver J. Flanagan Zoom on Oliver J. Flanagan The whole thing is a national disgrace.

Mr. Childers: Information on Erskine Hamilton Childers Zoom on Erskine Hamilton Childers I can answer it. This is typical of the Deputies opposite. If every person earning £2,500 a year in CIE, the whole of the executive staff were removed from office, the saving would add 2/9 per week per head to the remuneration of the staff. All this kind of talk is ridiculous and nonsensical, and will get nobody anywhere.

Mr. Coughlan: Information on Stephen Coughlan Zoom on Stephen Coughlan I did not get a reply to my question.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Patrick Hogan Zoom on Patrick Hogan I have called Question No. 4. The Deputy will resume his seat or leave the House.

Mr. Casey: Information on Seán Casey Zoom on Seán Casey I asked a supplementary question and I stated that I was not asking it in a heated manner. It is my duty as a public representative to get an answer to my question.

Mr. S. Dunne: Information on Seán Dunne Zoom on Seán Dunne How can you reconcile this with the miserable pittance paid to old age pensioners?

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Patrick Hogan Zoom on Patrick Hogan Deputy Casey will resume his seat or I will ask him to leave the House. I have called Question No. 4.

Mr. S. Dunne: Information on Seán Dunne Zoom on Seán Dunne This matter is being sidestepped and we will not permit it. I propose to raise the matter on the Adjournment.


Last Updated: 11/05/2015 14:14:37 First Page Previous Page Page of 31 Next Page Last Page