Garda Síochána (Amendment) (No. 3) Bill 2014: Report Stage (Continued)
  Estimates for Public Services 2015: Message from Select Committee
  European Debt: Motion (Resumed) [Private Members]

Wednesday, 4 February 2015

Dáil Éireann Debate
Vol. 866 No. 2

Amendment put:

The Dáil divided: Tá, 39; Níl, 74.

Tá	Níl
Adams, Gerry.	Barry, Tom.
Broughan, Thomas P.	Breen, Pat.
Calleary, Dara.	Bruton, Richard.
Collins, Joan.	Burton, Joan.
Collins, Niall.	Butler, Ray.
Colreavy, Michael.	Buttimer, Jerry.
Cowen, Barry.	Byrne, Catherine.
Crowe, Seán.	Byrne, Eric.
Daly, Clare.	Carey, Joe.
Doherty, Pearse.	Coffey, Paudie.
Ellis, Dessie.	Collins, Áine.
Ferris, Martin.	Conaghan, Michael.
Fitzmaurice, Michael.	Conlan, Seán.
Flanagan, Terence.	Connaughton, Paul J.
Fleming, Sean.	Conway, Ciara.
Fleming, Tom.	Coonan, Noel.
Halligan, John.	Corcoran Kennedy, Marcella.
Healy, Seamus.	Costello, Joe.
Kelleher, Billy.	Coveney, Simon.
Kirk, Seamus.	Creed, Michael.
Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.	Daly, Jim.
McConalogue, Charlie.	Deasy, John.
McGrath, Finian.	Deering, Pat.
McGrath, Mattie.	Donohoe, Paschal.
McGrath, Michael.	Dowds, Robert.
McGuinness, John.	Doyle, Andrew.
McLellan, Sandra.	Durkan, Bernard J.
Mathews, Peter.	Farrell, Alan.
Murphy, Catherine.	Feighan, Frank.
Naughten, Denis.	Fitzgerald, Frances.
Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.	Fitzpatrick, Peter.
Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.	Gilmore, Eamon.
O'Brien, Jonathan.	Griffin, Brendan.
O'Sullivan, Maureen.	Harrington, Noel.
Pringle, Thomas.	Harris, Simon.
Ross, Shane.	Heydon, Martin.
Stanley, Brian.	Humphreys, Heather.
Tóibín, Peadar.	Keating, Derek.
Wallace, Mick.	Kenny, Seán.
	Kyne, Seán.
	Lawlor, Anthony.
	Lynch, Ciarán.
	Lynch, Kathleen.
	Lyons, John.
	McCarthy, Michael.
	McEntee, Helen.
	McFadden, Gabrielle.
	McGinley, Dinny.
	McLoughlin, Tony.
	McNamara, Michael.
	Maloney, Eamonn.
	Mitchell, Olivia.
	Mitchell O'Connor, Mary.
	Mulherin, Michelle.
	Neville, Dan.
	Nolan, Derek.
	Noonan, Michael.
	Ó Ríordáin, Aodhán.
	O'Donnell, Kieran.
	O'Donovan, Patrick.
	O'Dowd, Fergus.
	O'Mahony, John.
	O'Reilly, Joe.
	O'Sullivan, Jan.
	Perry, John.
	Phelan, Ann.
	Phelan, John Paul.
	Rabbitte, Pat.
	Ring, Michael.
	Sherlock, Sean.
	Stagg, Emmet.
	Stanton, David.
	Tuffy, Joanna.
	White, Alex.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Pádraig Mac Lochlainn and Mick Wallace; Níl, Deputies Joe Carey and Emmet Stagg.

Amendment declared lost.

Debate adjourned.

Estimates for Public Services 2015: Message from Select Committee

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:   The Select Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality has completed its consideration of Votes 20, 21, 22, 23, 24 and 25 for the year ending 31 December 2015.

European Debt: Motion (Resumed) [Private Members]

The following motion was moved by Deputy Catherine Murphy on Tuesday, 3 January 2015:

“That Dáil Éireann notes:

- that the financial crisis highlighted the deviation from the founding principles and values of the European Union (EU) such as solidarity and mutual respect amongst nations;

- the unsustainability of the debt burden imposed on Ireland and other European countries;

- that the debt burden is an obstacle to economic and social development;

- that Ireland was a casualty of timing which allowed for private banking debts to be socialised, thus sacrificing the social and economic interests of Irish citizens; and

- that there is an urgent need to recapture the founding principle of solidarity and work towards a co-operative effort to promote sustainable growth and job creation across the EU; and

calls on the Government to:

- support calls for a European Debt Conference in order to agree a common solution with our Eurozone partners; and

- work constructively at European Council level and with all relevant EU institutions towards establishing a European Debt Conference.”

Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after “Dáil Éireann” and substitute the following:

“acknowledges that the financial crisis exposed flaws in the euro area’s design;

notes the significant enhancements to the economic, fiscal and banking frameworks in the European Union since the crisis;

acknowledges that sustainable growth and job creation across the EU are a priority and indeed was a priority of the Irish presidency;

recognises the importance of the founding principles and values of the Union, such as solidarity and mutual respect amongst nations;

further acknowledges the support of our European colleagues in the reduction of our debt burden through the lengthening of maturities on the European Financial Stability Facility and European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism debt, the reduction in interest rates on this debt, the promissory note deal and facilitating the early repayment of the more expensive International Monetary Fund debt;

notes that:

- Ireland has emerged from the economic and fiscal crisis and is now the fastest growing EU member state, and most importantly jobs are being created;

- debt is sustainable and on a firmly downward trajectory;

- economic recovery has allowed us to invest in public services and reduce the tax burden on individuals in budget 2015; and

- other programme countries are also growing strongly;

recognises that multilateral engagement should form the basis for discussions regarding debt sustainability and that the Eurogroup and Ecofin are the appropriate fora in this regard; and

agrees that the focus should be on promoting sustainable growth and job creation across the EU.”

(Minister for Finance)

Deputy Pearse Doherty:   I am glad to be in a position to support the motion proposed by the Technical Group and co-signed by Sinn Féin Members. It is a sensible and timely motion that Ireland would support the call for a debt conference.

Somebody in my office brought to my attention the headline in one of our newspapers about the Minister, Deputy Noonan, saying he broadly supported the concept of a debt conference. My response at the time was, "Sure, what else could he say?" because it was completely in Ireland's interest to support such a call. It would be in Ireland's interest if such a conference happened and was fruitful. Therefore, a Minister for Finance doing anything other than welcoming and being supportive of such a call would have been quite bizarre. However, as events unfolded and we got closer to the election, we have seen the Minister, Deputy Noonan, starting to retract and backtrack on what he reportedly said at that meeting. The Taoiseach has come out very clearly and said the Government would not support the idea of a debt conference.

I cannot get my head around that because this is not about setting ultimatums for our fellow Europeans or trying to have a showdown with them. It is about acknowledging that in many member states across Europe there is an issue with a large level of debt in member states and in some cases that level of debt being unsustainable. It is about the first course of action to deal with the problem. In any situation where a person has a serious problem the first way to deal with it is to acknowledge that there is a problem in itself. An addict addicted to a substance must acknowledge that he or she is addicted. In this case Europe is addicted to too much debt and to the austerity policies that heap more crippling debt upon debt.

A debt conference in itself is the signal that Europe is confirming that what has happened up to now is no longer the path we can go down into the future. We have to acknowledge that something needs to be done about the high level of indebtedness of some member states.

How can that issue be resolved? There are as many proposals for resolving the over-indebtedness of Europe as there are people in this Chamber. However, it is not about which proposal is better than the other, whether it is the Greek academics' proposal about buying up debt of member states above 50% of GDP and having a zero coupon interest rate applied to that over a period until the state's economy is large enough to buy back that debt, the other proposals over debt swaps, or proposals such as bonds that would be linked to GDP growth and so on. There are many proposals and we have our own that have been debated in this Chamber about retroactive recapitalisation and about the ECB holding on to the Anglo Irish Bank promissory note bonds - the debt that has been turned into Irish bonds.