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Hide details for Thirty-second Amendment of the Constitution (Abolition of Seanad Éireann) Bill 2013: Second Stage (Resumed)Thirty-second Amendment of the Constitution (Abolition of Seanad Éireann) Bill 2013: Second Stage (Resumed)
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04/07/2013 [Bills] Vol-224 Book-9
04/07/2013 [Bills] I welcome the Minister of State to the House. When he ran for election for the Seanad, I gave him a number one vote. It was important as the tremendous work he has done over the past two years may not have happened if he had not run for the Seanad.
The idea that a significant amount of m...
Vol-224 Book-9 Page [726]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Many views have been expressed on this issue in recent days and weeks, for example, by younger Deputies in my party who have not served in the House before. Some of them had not even served on a council before their election to the Dáil. People need to be measured in their criticisms. The...Vol-224 Book-9 Page [727]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Tá lúcháir orm deis a bheith agam labhairt ar an mBille seo. Ar an drochuair, ní thugann an Bille seo an dara rogha do mhuintir na tíre seachas cinneadh a dhéanamh an Seanad a choinneáil nó deireadh a chur leis. Níl aon idirdhealú ann i dtaca le deis a thabhairt do phobal na tíre athbhreit...Vol-224 Book-9 Page [727]
04/07/2013 [Bills] There are no gigs in the Burlington Hotel, rather there are dinners.[Hayes, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [728]
04/07/2013 [Bills] On his way into the Burlington Hotel that night the current Taoiseach licked his finger to see which way the wind was blowing. Rather than doing what he had promised to do a few months earlier, he decided to do the popular thing in line with how the wind was blowing that night. Much to the...Vol-224 Book-9 Page [728]
04/07/2013 [Bills] On a point of order, the Senator is straying very far from the topic of this debate. Furthermore this is Government policy.[Bacik, Ivana]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [729]
04/07/2013 [Bills] It is to do with democracy.[Ó Domhnaill, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [729]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Senator Ó Domhnaill is talking about Government policy in respect of the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill. It was passed by 138 votes to 24 in the other House.[Bacik, Ivana]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [729]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Thankfully-----[Ó Domhnaill, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [729]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Some of Senator Ó Domhnaill's party members voted for it.[Bacik, Ivana]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [729]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Thankfully Senator Bacik will not judge my decision in respect of that or any other legislation.[Ó Domhnaill, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [729]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I am not trying to influence the Senator's decision but his own party leader voted for the Bill.[Bacik, Ivana]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [729]
04/07/2013 [Bills] The Senator should stick to the debate.[Henry, Imelda]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [729]
04/07/2013 [Bills] The old Democratic Left stickies have not gone away, as someone said to me recently. They have not. RTE might be interested in hearing those words.[Ó Domhnaill, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [729]
04/07/2013 [Bills] That is pathetic and well off the point.[Bacik, Ivana]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [729]
04/07/2013 [Bills] The Senator should stick to the debate please.[Henry, Imelda]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [729]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Going back to this debate, and keeping to this debate, it is wrong that instead of reforming we abolish, that instead of giving the people more of an opportunity we abolish. Great debates have taken place in this House. During the Minister of State's time here great debates took place. We...Vol-224 Book-9 Page [729]
04/07/2013 [Bills] The Senator has spent too much time in Cairo.[Hayes, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [730]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Shades of Cairo alright.[Bacik, Ivana]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [730]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Like every Senator I am going to vote against the Seanad's abolition.[Conway, Martin]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [730]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Hear, hear.[Bacik, Ivana]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [730]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I welcome the Minister, Deputy Brian Hayes, back to the bosom of his political life.
When introducing this Bill, the Taoiseach stated that there were too many politicians in this country and his remedy to this terrible malaise was to abolish, abolish, abolish. The Government has taken a w...
Vol-224 Book-9 Page [732]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Hear, hear.[Wilson, Diarmuid]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [733]
04/07/2013 [Bills] -----which is one arm of the Oireachtas equal to the Dáil and the Presidency. It is not to be debated there at all. What a load of rubbish. It is complete bunkum. I do not know whether that word is allowed but that is what I feel.[Heffernan, James]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [733]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I wish to take up a point made by the previous speaker. I stood for election and canvassed on behalf of the Fine Gael Party during the last general election. Its manifesto contained a commitment that the matter would be put to the people in a referendum. The same commitment was stated in ...Vol-224 Book-9 Page [733]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes. It is ironic given that he participated in producing a very good report by a committee chaired by Mary O'Rourke and attended by Joe O'Toole and John Dardis, that he should be the here. Is he the gamekeeper who became the poacher or the p...Vol-224 Book-9 Page [735]
04/07/2013 [Bills] That is a political interpretation.[Bacik, Ivana]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [737]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Putting Labour first.[Wilson, Diarmuid]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [737]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Senator Terry Leyden to continue, without interruption.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [737]
04/07/2013 [Bills] It is a fact. The fact is that the number of local authority seats in Roscommon is being reduced from 26 to 18. In Dublin the city council is being increased to 60 members, while in Wexford and elsewhere, council chambers are being rebuilt at enormous cost because the Labour Party wants to...Vol-224 Book-9 Page [737]
04/07/2013 [Bills] On a point of order, once again, the Senator is straying very far from the topic of the debate and making all sorts of allegations which are political challenges and certainly not fact.[Bacik, Ivana]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [737]
04/07/2013 [Bills] That is not a point of order.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [737]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Hear, hear. Well said.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [739]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I will support the Bill because we have to give the people the choice but once it is passed, I will campaign for a reformed Seanad because we need this House. It is unfair to ask the public "Yes" or "No" without giving them options. How can we expect to people to vote "Yes" to save the Hou...Vol-224 Book-9 Page [739]
04/07/2013 [Bills] But all the Government Members will vote to extinguish it.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [739]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Senator Moloney without interruption.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [739]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I am voting to put the referendum to the people.[Moloney, Marie]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [739]
04/07/2013 [Bills] No, the Senator is not. She is voting to extinguish the Seanad. There should have been two Bills.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [739]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Senator Moloney without interruption.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [739]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I also cannot understand why a stand-alone referendum is taking place when local elections will be held early next year. The State would save money if it were held on the same day as the local elections. I await the Minister's response on that.[Moloney, Marie]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [739]
04/07/2013 [Bills] This is an unhappy debate. It is a sad day for the Oireachtas and, in particular, for the Fine Gael Party. My colleagues in the party know that because I have been watching their expressions over recent days. I regret that because, even though I am in Fianna Fáil, I always have respect fo...Vol-224 Book-9 Page [740]
04/07/2013 [Bills] It was the Fine Gael Deputies who stopped O'Duffy. They put it to an end and resolved it.[Hayes, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [740]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Senator O'Sullivan, without interruption.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [740]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Fine Gael spat him out but de Valera had him well stopped by then.[O'Sullivan, Ned]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [740]
04/07/2013 [Bills] It was all over in 12 months.[Hayes, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [740]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I do not compare the Taoiseach to General O'Duffy but an element of the general's arrogance is attaching to him. The most recent example of this was in the Dáil last week when the bank tapes were revealed. The Taoiseach's response was not the same as every other individual in the country, ...Vol-224 Book-9 Page [740]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Yes, it was. The Senator is absolutely right.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [740]
04/07/2013 [Bills] -----and another decent man who tried to do the best they could in difficult circumstances and who succeeded in producing a roadmap which the Minister for Finance and others have followed since. It should not be forgotten that Fine Gael supported the bank guarantee at the time.
All that p...
Vol-224 Book-9 Page [740]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Senator O'Sullivan spoke about Fine Gael arrogance. If Carlsberg did arrogance, it would be Fianna Fáil arrogance. He mentioned General Eoin O'Duffy and the rogue gene in Fine Gael. I want to address that point. There have been three incidents in the history of the State. We all know th...Vol-224 Book-9 Page [742]
04/07/2013 [Bills] And Jack Lynch did.[O'Sullivan, Ned]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [742]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Will the Senator address the Bill before us?[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [742]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Yes I will but I am entitled to rebut that statement. On the third occasion, tá sé connected leis an rúd a duirt mo chara thall ansin. He said the third time was when Brian Cowen and Brian Lenihan - we will not castigate any individual, decent people - put us in economic bondage. We are f...Vol-224 Book-9 Page [742]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Four weeks.[Byrne, Thomas]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [743]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I take that point.
The programme for Government includes a provision to put to a referendum of the people the proposal to abolish the Seanad. We on this side say it is right that this be done. One would think from listening to the contribution of Members on the other side that the Taoise...
Vol-224 Book-9 Page [743]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I think the Senator is right.[Hayes, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [743]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I think I am right. I am not very wise but I am not a bad judge of other people's wisdom, and I believe there is more wisdom, consideration, reflection and higher order qualities in the Seanad. That is the purpose of the Seanad. It makes a significant contribution.
I am particularly imp...
Vol-224 Book-9 Page [743]
04/07/2013 [Bills] In Sextons in Haggardstown.[Sheahan, Tom]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [744]
04/07/2013 [Bills] And in other places. I do not spend all my life in Sextons but I admit I do hear it there. I hear it at home and in other places. In fairness to Senator O'Sullivan, behind this rhetoric we are close.
The Seanad is a very important institution. It is part of our democratic structure. I...
Vol-224 Book-9 Page [744]
04/07/2013 [Bills] This legislation must be opposed for a number of reasons, the first being the origin of the idea. Last week Senator Eamonn Coghlan wondered whether the idea arose over a pint or a cup of coffee, and for all we know, that is the case. Certainly the idea was landed on a surprised Fine Gael.....Vol-224 Book-9 Page [744]
04/07/2013 [Bills] The parish priest would not know what else to do with himself. There are many one-horse battles.[Coghlan, Paul]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [748]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Second, an amendment could be made to the legislation, or done in some way, to ensure that many of these young turks, naysayers and people who want rid of the Seanad are not allowed to stand for election for the next Seanad.[Sheahan, Tom]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [748]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I call Senator Diarmuid Wilson and he has ten minutes.[Moloney, Marie]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [748]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, to the House. This is very familiar territory for him. Only for the Seanad, the Houses of the Oireachtas and the people of this country would have been deprived of his contribution to the national Parliament.[Wilson, Diarmuid]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [748]
04/07/2013 [Bills] God help Ireland.[Hayes, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [748]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Five years of which I was honoured to have served with him in this House.[Wilson, Diarmuid]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [748]
04/07/2013 [Bills] We were all honoured.[Coghlan, Paul]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [748]
04/07/2013 [Bills] What did the Irish people do to deserve me?[Hayes, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [748]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I welcome back the Minister of State. He has made an excellent contribution to national politics since he first came to this House and I mean that genuinely.
Like any other citizen, I have a responsibility to speak out and shout out loud when I see a great and important institution being....
Vol-224 Book-9 Page [748]
04/07/2013 [Bills] It was the Burlington.[Hayes, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [749]
04/07/2013 [Bills] At the dinner the Leader of the Opposition in the Seanad at the time, Frances Fitzgerald, nearly collapsed on live television beside the Taoiseach when he announced that he would get rid of the Seanad. As Senator Heffernan and other colleagues have said, it had more to do with the opinion p...Vol-224 Book-9 Page [749]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Before I call the next speaker, the Minister of State has been unavoidably called out of the House for a couple of minutes. We will wait until he returns.[Moloney, Marie]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [750]
04/07/2013 [Bills] We are all good democrats in this House, living as we do in a constitutional democracy which is what this little republic of ours is. There have been many complaints, even on the Order of Business, that this is a Bill the objective of which is the abolition of the Seanad but its Title refer...Vol-224 Book-9 Page [750]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I think that is changing.[Hayes, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [751]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I hope the Minister of State is right, but I do not think Deputies really see themselves as legislators. They see themselves as glorified county councillors.[Coghlan, Paul]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [751]
04/07/2013 [Bills] The Senator is dead right.[Gilroy, John]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [751]
04/07/2013 [Bills] That is a terrible indictment of them.[Eames, Fidelma Healy]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [751]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I watch them and salute them. We have all engaged in it. I go to county council and town council offices, although possibly not as often as Deputies do. I do not get as much of that kind of work and do not want to interfere with councillors. A Deputy is continually focused on his or her....Vol-224 Book-9 Page [751]
04/07/2013 [Bills] The Senator has one minute left.[Moloney, Marie]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [752]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I have ten minutes.[Coghlan, Paul]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [752]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Yes and the Senator has used nine of them.[Moloney, Marie]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [752]
04/07/2013 [Bills] You are joking me. I have three pages left.[Coghlan, Paul]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [752]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Start reading faster.[Moloney, Marie]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [752]
04/07/2013 [Bills] The Chair will give some latitude to her fellow Kerry person.[Conway, Martin]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [752]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I do not believe in shrinking the democratic space. This measure will lead to a huge loss on the democratic side. It is wrong to blame the Seanad for any lack of reform. It has repeatedly shown a willingness to engage with the reform process and the Minister of State was part of that proc...Vol-224 Book-9 Page [752]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Much as I like to hear the Senator speak, I have to ask him to conclude.[Moloney, Marie]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [752]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I will conclude.[Coghlan, Paul]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [752]
04/07/2013 [Bills] The Senator should be given a chance.[Conway, Martin]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [753]
04/07/2013 [Bills] No, I have to obey the Chair.[Coghlan, Paul]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [753]
04/07/2013 [Bills] The Senator will get another crack of the whip on another day.[Moloney, Marie]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [753]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I might be as awkward if I was in the Chair. The people are not being given a proper choice. Dáil reform is fraught with difficulty and it could be mission impossible. We have no control over people's choices. I could speak further about democratic principles, but I will leave it at that...Vol-224 Book-9 Page [753]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I welcome the Minister of State and thank him for sticking with us. We are at a defining moment in Irish parliamentary democracy and we must proceed with great care lest we be sorry in the future. The fundamental question we need to answer concerns what type of parliament we need to best s...Vol-224 Book-9 Page [753]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I welcome the Minister of State to the House. He is showing the stamina that he displayed in his first Seanad election. I can confirm that I helped give him his first break in politics, and I am very honoured to have done so.[Mullins, Michael]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [756]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I think I got more votes than I actually-----[Hayes, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [756]
04/07/2013 [Bills] They all add up. I could not but support him, given his Ballinasloe and Garbally connections at the time.[Mullins, Michael]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [756]
04/07/2013 [Bills] And undoubted merit.[Gilroy, John]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [756]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I certainly made a very wise decision. The Minister of State has learned his skill well and made a major contribution to Irish politics since he first became a Member of this House and subsequently a Member of the Dáil.
I was present on the night in 2009 when our party leader announced th...
Vol-224 Book-9 Page [756]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I welcome the Minister of State to the House today. Like other Members I do not believe that the Seanad should stay as it is. It has been an enormous privilege for me to be here for the past two years. I am extremely grateful to the members of the county councils around the country who el...Vol-224 Book-9 Page [758]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. I thank him for the patience and diligence he has shown in listening to the arguments.
When the Seanad was founded in the early years of the State, it was envisaged that it should offer real opportunities for building bridges for all citizens. It was....
Vol-224 Book-9 Page [760]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I thank the Senator.[Hayes, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [761]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Can we blame many Deputies for focusing, as some other Senators have mentioned, on their constituencies? No, we cannot. That is the system we have and it badly needs reform, perhaps more so than this House.
We also need reform at local level. Devolution of functions is something we hav...
Vol-224 Book-9 Page [761]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I ask the Senator to conclude.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [763]
04/07/2013 [Bills] -----provides that the Seanad has the right to ask for an inquiry. I will not advocate a "No" vote nor a "Yes" vote because if I advocated a "Yes" vote it would involve a conflict of interest. I am not minding my seat because I may not have a seat. I thank the people who put me here and f...Vol-224 Book-9 Page [763]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I propose an extension of time to 4.40 p.m. to allow the Minister of State to respond.[Cummins, Maurice]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [763]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Is that agreed? Agreed.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [763]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I thank the Cathaoirleach and all my colleagues in this House for their very thoughtful contributions in what I am sure is a very difficult debate for them. I also thank Senator Cummins for facilitating me on behalf of the Government. A month ago, the Taoiseach took me aside one evening an...Vol-224 Book-9 Page [763]
04/07/2013 [Bills] What is this?[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [763]
04/07/2013 [Bills] As someone who avidly reads the Constitution, as far as I am concerned, this House has done its job in so far as the Constitution allows. I have always made that point. However, the question which the Government is united in putting forward is a fundamental question of first principles, wh...Vol-224 Book-9 Page [763]
04/07/2013 [Bills] If the Taoiseach is so full of respect would the Minister of State ask him to explain to us how it is that he is telling the Irish people every single day that we are a waste of time and a waste of taxpayers' money.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [764]
04/07/2013 [Bills] The Minister of State without interruption.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [764]
04/07/2013 [Bills] It is my view and that of the Government that the fundamental issue that will be broached in this referendum campaign and the decision of the Irish people, is a first principles issue of whether, in our current state as a country and as a parliamentary democracy, we need a second House.
Se...
Vol-224 Book-9 Page [764]
04/07/2013 [Bills] The Minister of State cannot answer that one.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [764]
04/07/2013 [Bills] There will be plenty of opportunities on Committee and Report Stages to give the Senator as much time as he needs-----[Hayes, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [764]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Good.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [764]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I ask the Senator to please give me the opportunity that I gave him.[Hayes, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [764]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I do not feel any respect.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [764]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Please, Senator, the Minister of State without interruption.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [764]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I ask for the same opportunity I gave the Senator. We gave a firm commitment to the Irish people that if we were in government after the general election we would put this question of whether a second Chamber is needed. As the leader of the party and as the Taoiseach of this country, he is...Vol-224 Book-9 Page [764]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Abolishing the Senate will solve all our problems; that is an insult to our intelligence.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [764]
04/07/2013 [Bills] The Minister of State, without interruption.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [764]
04/07/2013 [Bills] How are we going to ensure that the architecture we put in place now is properly fit for purpose to ensure we can get through our particular difficulties?[Hayes, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [764]
04/07/2013 [Bills] The people expressed a view on Seanad reform in the 1979 referendum, but nothing was done about it.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [765]
04/07/2013 [Bills] It is a sovereign matter for the Irish people to decide.[Hayes, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [765]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Why is the Government forcing people to vote for the extinction of the House? The word "referendum" does not appear in the explanatory memorandum at all and only once in the Bill itself.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [765]
04/07/2013 [Bills] The Minister of State, without interruption.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [765]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Some Senators might have difficulty accepting that the Irish people are ultimately sovereign here.[Hayes, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [765]
04/07/2013 [Bills] We know that.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [765]
04/07/2013 [Bills] It is the firm view of the Government that it is ultimately a matter for the people to decide this matter.[Hayes, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [765]
04/07/2013 [Bills] The public is being swindled.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [765]
04/07/2013 [Bills] The Minister of State must be allowed to speak without interruption.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [765]
04/07/2013 [Bills] He needs interruption. Seeking to destroy this House is an act of violence and the Minister of State is talking rubbish.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [765]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Senator, please.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [765]
04/07/2013 [Bills] We will let the people decide that, Senator Norris.[Hayes, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [765]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Yes, let the people decide, and let the Taoiseach meet me in debate on television or some other public forum. I will take him to pieces. Of course he has not answered the letter in which I issued that challenge to him.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [765]
04/07/2013 [Bills] The Senator must resume his seat and allow the Minister of State to reply without interruption.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [765]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Why?[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [765]
04/07/2013 [Bills] For people to suggest there has been no reform either in the other House or in the further proposals we have set out is simply untrue. We stand over the actions we have taken thus far while acknowledging that there is a long way to travel. We are not suggesting for a moment that the whole ...Vol-224 Book-9 Page [765]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Did the Government accept that Private Members' Bill?[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [766]
04/07/2013 [Bills] The Government accepted the Bill and it has gone to committee.[Hayes, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [766]
04/07/2013 [Bills] The Minister of State, without interruption.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [766]
04/07/2013 [Bills] That has been happening in the past two years. Friday sittings do work.[Hayes, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [766]
04/07/2013 [Bills] They are a meagre and insubstantial concession.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [766]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Senator, please.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [766]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Second, we have introduced a new petitions system which gives an opportunity to the public to petition Parliament in a direct way.[Hayes, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [766]
04/07/2013 [Bills] We have the same system; in fact, we pioneered it.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [766]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Third, we have put through both Houses a proposal whereby at least one third of all candidates at the next general election must be women. That will radically increase the number of women who stand for the Oireachtas. Fourth, we have radically transformed the way in which the Ceann Comhair...Vol-224 Book-9 Page [766]
04/07/2013 [Bills] The Minister of State is making me laugh.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [766]
04/07/2013 [Bills] The Senator might not see that legislation as important but many others do.[Hayes, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [766]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I consider it so important that I tried to get provisions in that regard through myself, but the Government left that proposal to dangle in the air.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [766]
04/07/2013 [Bills] The Senator must allow the Minister of State to reply.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [766]
04/07/2013 [Bills] We also intend to publish amendments to the freedom of information legislation. We have effectively abolished corporate donations, something which people have been seeking for a long time. All of these changes were introduced in a very short period of time. To suggest that nothing has bee...Vol-224 Book-9 Page [767]
04/07/2013 [Bills] What about the €2.1 million the Government has already spent?[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [767]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I take the point Senators have made that amendments to legislation which are introduced in this House are regularly accepted by Ministers. The truth of the matter, however, is that the great majority of those amendments are Government amendments.[Hayes, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [767]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Yes, because the Government has made a balls of the legislation in the other House.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [767]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Senator, please.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [767]
04/07/2013 [Bills] In other words, that is an argument for changing the way in which we deal with legislation in the other House. In that regard, the Government has indicated its intention to introduce a new stage in the legislative debate process whereby Bills will be a subjected to an initial forensic scrut...Vol-224 Book-9 Page [767]
04/07/2013 [Bills] When will that reform be introduced? Give us a date.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [767]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Senator Norris must allow the Minister of State to speak.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [767]
04/07/2013 [Bills] As the Senator knows, that reform will be introduced in the event that the Seanad is abolished.[Hayes, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [767]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Why will the Government not simply introduce it now?[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [767]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Some of the preparation is already under way. An additional reform will mean that within a year of enactment of any Bill, there will be a full assessment of the legislation. Again, to posit the view that there will be no change in the way in which the Dáil does its business is, with respec...Vol-224 Book-9 Page [767]
04/07/2013 [Bills] The Minister of State should stop saying "with respect". He and his Government have no respect at all for this House.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [767]
04/07/2013 [Bills] The Senator must allow the Minister of State to conclude.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [767]
04/07/2013 [Bills] The Senator might have no respect for himself but I certainly have respect for him, even in his wilder moments.[Hayes, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [767]
04/07/2013 [Bills] The Minister of State has no respect for this House.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [767]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I have respect for this House.
We will go through all of these issues as calmly as we possibly can on Committee and Report Stages. It is important that the Government follows through on the commitment it gave to the public. The Irish people will decide this issue once and for all and man...
Vol-224 Book-9 Page [767]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Like hell it is.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [768]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Will the Minister of State repeat that? I am sure I must not have heard him right.[Mooney, Paschal]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [768]
04/07/2013 [Bills] The Minister of State, without interruption.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [768]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Clearly there are many colleagues in this House who will not support the referendum. I fully understand that.[Hayes, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [768]
04/07/2013 [Bills] We will support the referendum, but we will not support abolition.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [768]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Senator, please.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [768]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I will accept the view of the Irish people even if Senator Norris cannot do so.[Hayes, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [768]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Of course I will, but I do not tolerate three-card tricksters.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [768]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I am happy to leave the matter in the hands of the people. Their judgment will be far more considered than that of the Senator.[Hayes, Brian]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [768]
04/07/2013 [Bills] For the information of Senators, under Standing Order 119, the question to be put to the House on amendment No. 1, as proposed by Senator Feargal Quinn, is as follows: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand part of the main question". If the question is carried, Standing Order 119 als...Vol-224 Book-9 Page [768]
04/07/2013 [Bills] That is if Senator Quinn's amendment is accepted.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [768]
04/07/2013 [Bills] If the question is carried.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [768]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Yes, that is fine. That means the Bill will be delayed.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [768]
04/07/2013 [Bills] The question is, "That the words proposed to be deleted stand part of the main question." Is that agreed?[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [768]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I am lost.[Quinn, Feargal]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [768]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Do Senators want to vote for Senator Quinn’s amendment?[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [768]
04/07/2013 [Bills] On a point of information, I am totally confused. I do not know what we are voting on. The Cathaoirleach needs to take a minute to explain this.[Crown, John]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [768]
04/07/2013 [Bills] It is a question of whether Senators want to vote for Senator Feargal Quinn's amendment.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [768]
04/07/2013 [Bills] For the information of the House, under Standing Order 119, the question to be put to the House on amendment No. 1, which is being proposed by Senator Feargal Quinn, is, "That the words proposed to be deleted stand part of the main question." If that question is carried, the Bill will be de...Vol-224 Book-9 Page [769]
04/07/2013 [Bills] If the amendment is defeated, we get another vote.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [769]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Yes. That is a different question.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [769]
04/07/2013 [Bills] If we vote for Senator Quinn’s amendment and it is accepted, we will have succeeded in deferring the referendum for three months.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [769]
04/07/2013 [Bills] No.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [769]
04/07/2013 [Bills] If it fails, we can vote again. Is that right?[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [769]
04/07/2013 [Bills] The question is-----[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [769]
04/07/2013 [Bills] On a point of order, do I, the proposer of the amendment, vote "Yes" or "No"?[Quinn, Feargal]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [769]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I cannot possibly say which way the Senator should vote.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [769]
04/07/2013 [Bills] What if the Senator wants to accept his own amendment?[Cummins, Maurice]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [769]
04/07/2013 [Bills] The effect of a "Yes" vote is that the Bill will be read a Second Time.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [769]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Yes.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [769]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Unamended. Therefore, we are voting "No".[Crown, John]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [769]
04/07/2013 [Bills] As it is. The effect of-----[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [769]
04/07/2013 [Bills] That is not what the Cathaoirleach said the first time.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [769]
04/07/2013 [Bills] On a point of order to assist the House, the purpose of Senator Quinn’s amendment, as I read it, is to ensure the Bill will not be read a Second Time until 17 September.[Bacik, Ivana]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [769]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Yes.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [769]
04/07/2013 [Bills] If the amendment is passed, the Bill will not be deemed read a Second Time.[Bacik, Ivana]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [769]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Under Standing Order 119, the question on an amendment to Second Stage of a Bill is, "That the words proposed to be deleted stand part of the main question." If the question is carried, the Bill is declared read a Second Time.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [769]
04/07/2013 [Bills] One a point of order, Senator Quinn’s amendment seeks to defer the Second Stage reading of the Bill.[Bacik, Ivana]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [769]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Of course it does.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [769]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Therefore, if the amendment is passed, the Bill-----[Bacik, Ivana]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [770]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Standing Orders define the questions I put in the House. We must put the question to the House under Standing Order 119. The question is, "That the words proposed to be deleted stand part of the main question." Those in favour, say "Tá".[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [770]
04/07/2013 [Bills] What about the following? The amendment is very clear. It is not just deleting but actually deleting and substituting. Why can we not address this amendment?[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [770]
04/07/2013 [Bills] We are.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [770]
04/07/2013 [Bills] We are not, because the Cathaoirleach has left out a substantial portion of it.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [770]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I am putting the question again. I ask Senator Norris to resume his seat. The question is, "That the words proposed to be deleted stand part of the main question."[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [770]
04/07/2013 [Bills] As there seems to be a malfunction with the electronic voting system, we will proceed to a manual division.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [770]
04/07/2013 [Bills] "Fógraím gur léadh an Bille an dara huair de réir Bhuan-Ordú 119(2)(i)."
"I declare the Bill read a Second Time in accordance with Standing Order 119(2)(i)."[An Cathaoirleach]
Vol-224 Book-9 Page [771]
04/07/2013 [Bills] When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [771]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Next Wednesday.[Cummins, Maurice]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [771]
04/07/2013 [Bills] Is that agreed?[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [771]
04/07/2013 [Bills] I propose 17 September.[Norris, David]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [771]
04/07/2013 [Bills] When is it proposed to sit again?[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [772]
04/07/2013 [Bills] At 2.30 p.m. next Tuesday.[Cummins, Maurice]Vol-224 Book-9 Page [772]
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