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10/06/2015 [Bills] I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Simon Harris, to the House.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [522]
10/06/2015 [Bills] Sections 1 to 9, inclusive, agreed to.

Schedule 1 agreed to.

SCHEDULE 2
Vol-240 Book-8 Page [522]
10/06/2015 [Bills] I move amendment No. 1:
In page 117, to delete lines 5 and 6.
This relates to a proclamation ordering the apprehension of street robbers in Dublin. Could anybody deny that this is more necessary than ever? If it was necessary in the 18th century, my God it is necessary now. It is not abou...
Vol-240 Book-8 Page [522]
10/06/2015 [Bills] I disagree with Senator Norris. Good riddance to these proclamations of the 18th century because, in the main, they were penal laws which subjugated the people of this country at the time.[Byrne, Thomas]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [523]
10/06/2015 [Bills] Balls.[Norris, David]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [523]
10/06/2015 [Bills] I do not have the text of this legislation relating to that Lord Lieutenant, who I believe was the Duke of Devonshire. I certainly do not support that legislation and I do not wish to keep it.[Byrne, Thomas]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [523]
10/06/2015 [Bills] We know Fianna Fáil supports robbery of the public. That is fairly obvious.[Norris, David]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [523]
10/06/2015 [Bills] We do not.[Byrne, Thomas]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [523]
10/06/2015 [Bills] Paying the debts of the Germans-----[Norris, David]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [523]
10/06/2015 [Bills] In many ways-----[Byrne, Thomas]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [523]
10/06/2015 [Bills] That is its style.[Norris, David]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [523]
10/06/2015 [Bills] Senator Byrne, without interruption.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [523]
10/06/2015 [Bills] In many ways it is ludicrous to debate a piece of legislation that was spent nearly 200 years ago.[Byrne, Thomas]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [523]
10/06/2015 [Bills] The context of the Bill is the penal laws of this country-----Vol-240 Book-8
10/06/2015 [Bills] It is not.[Norris, David]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [523]
10/06/2015 [Bills] -----under which the majority of the people suffered grievously under the lord lieutenants and their legislation.[Byrne, Thomas]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [523]
10/06/2015 [Bills] Including myself.[Norris, David]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [523]
10/06/2015 [Bills] Let us do this as quickly as possible.[Byrne, Thomas]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [523]
10/06/2015 [Bills] The Senator has contributed already. I call Senator Paschal Mooney.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [523]
10/06/2015 [Bills] I have some reservations about one of the citations. Which one are we debating?[Mooney, Paschal]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [523]
10/06/2015 [Bills] We are debating the amendment.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [524]
10/06/2015 [Bills] It is about the apprehension of street robbers.[Norris, David]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [524]
10/06/2015 [Bills] I will allow the Senator in on the Schedule.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [524]
10/06/2015 [Bills] Is it on the Schedule?[Mooney, Paschal]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [524]
10/06/2015 [Bills] We are on amendment No. 1.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [524]
10/06/2015 [Bills] I thank the Cathaoirleach.[Mooney, Paschal]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [524]
10/06/2015 [Bills] I thank the Seanad for consideration of Committee Stage of the Bill. It is useful in response to this amendment, and what I anticipate to be our debate, to remind people of what we are doing. In this and the other House we pass new laws all the time. That is our job. It is our job to put...Vol-240 Book-8 Page [524]
10/06/2015 [Bills] I fully accept the Minister of State's reply.[Norris, David]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [524]
10/06/2015 [Bills] Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.Vol-240 Book-8 Page [524]
10/06/2015 [Bills] I move amendment No. 2:
In page 129, to delete lines 4 and 5.
This is a more significant order. It is an order of 3 February 1755 for the surveying of pavements in the City of Dublin. This is from the Paving Commission. I doubt very much if the Minister of State can tell me there is no......
Vol-240 Book-8 Page [524]
10/06/2015 [Bills] Yes.[Harris, Simon]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [525]
10/06/2015 [Bills] The Government should have some responsibility for it. I despair. I live in the inner city and have lived there for 40 years and I have literally spent millions of my own money restoring a house. We have utterly decrepit pavements. I invite the Minister of State to come and have a look a...Vol-240 Book-8 Page [525]
10/06/2015 [Bills] That is inappropriate; that is desperate.[Sheahan, Tom]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [525]
10/06/2015 [Bills] I am making the point-----[Norris, David]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [525]
10/06/2015 [Bills] I ask the Senator to withdraw that remark.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [525]
10/06/2015 [Bills] -----that this city is decrepit. It is a disgrace as a capital city and it needs some attention; looking at the pavements would be a start.[Norris, David]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [525]
10/06/2015 [Bills] I have had much respect for Senator Norris over the years and I am sure he does not mean to refer to any member of the public service as a little squirt. Members of the public service, as they go about their duties, enable the Senator to carry out his duties and have done the State signific...Vol-240 Book-8 Page [525]
10/06/2015 [Bills] So have we. We have been paid significantly less.[Norris, David]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [525]
10/06/2015 [Bills] The Senator is paid a fine wage as I am.[Harris, Simon]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [525]
10/06/2015 [Bills] I am paid much less than middle management.[Norris, David]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [525]
10/06/2015 [Bills] I do not think the Senator should refer to people as little squirts. The Senator has mentioned that he was able to spend millions on doing up his home. There are not many people working in the Civil Service who would be in a position to do that.[Harris, Simon]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [525]
10/06/2015 [Bills] Yes, they would.[Norris, David]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [525]
10/06/2015 [Bills] I would hope the Senator would reflect on that.[Harris, Simon]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [525]
10/06/2015 [Bills] The Minister of State to continue, without interruption, please. I ask that there be no interruptions from the Visitors Gallery, please.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [525]
10/06/2015 [Bills] We are responding to a piece of legislation which seeks to revoke an instrument of 1755. The Senator's amendment seeks to remove an instrument of 1755 from the Schedule of revoked instruments. The instrument concerned is an order of 1755 for the surveying of pavements in the City of Dublin...Vol-240 Book-8 Page [525]
10/06/2015 [Bills] I know Senator David Norris does much for Georgian Dublin but he is in danger of turning the Seanad into a Georgian parliamentary chamber because we have been debating issues that are utterly irrelevant. Listening to the debate about the items that are spent, I wonder whether it is worth th...Vol-240 Book-8 Page [526]
10/06/2015 [Bills] Church wardens and directors of the watch would have been the equivalent of local authorities. Nothing could be more relevant to the welfare of the city today than the requirement that all local authorities do a survey of the state of the pavements. The Minister of State said it was a onc...Vol-240 Book-8 Page [526]
10/06/2015 [Bills] It has.[Harris, Simon]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [526]
10/06/2015 [Bills] I am interested to hear what the Minister of State has to say.[Norris, David]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [526]
10/06/2015 [Bills] In an effort to be helpful it referred to the current season on 1755, hence my proposal that it is spent and the reason I am not in a position to accept the amendment.[Harris, Simon]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [526]
10/06/2015 [Bills] Amendment put and declared lost.Vol-240 Book-8 Page [526]
10/06/2015 [Bills] I move amendment No. 3:
In page 169, to delete lines 38 to 40.
This amendment refers to a proclamation prohibiting the publishing of false, wicked malicious reports and news. I delight in that. Maybe it was the 18th century but, surely to God, this is something we should uphold as a parlia...
Vol-240 Book-8 Page [526]
10/06/2015 [Bills] Something should be done about the deliberate spreading of false, malicious and wicked reports to frighten people off from their parliamentary duties. I do not expect a positive reply from the Minister of State on this, but I would like him to bring the message back to the Cabinet and colle...Vol-240 Book-8
10/06/2015 [Bills] The Senator should not discuss anyone who is not here to defend himself.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [527]
10/06/2015 [Bills] In other words, anything more than a cottage was ruled out, not by the Minister, but by this anonymous civil servant.[Norris, David]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [527]
10/06/2015 [Bills] In regard to the amendment put forward by Senator Norris, it seeks to remove an instrument of 1779 from the schedule of revoked instruments. The proclamation of 1779, which this refers to, was issued in response to representations made to the then Lord Lieutenant and Council of Ireland that...Vol-240 Book-8 Page [527]
10/06/2015 [Bills] I thank the Minister of State for that undertaking.[Norris, David]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [527]
10/06/2015 [Bills] Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.Vol-240 Book-8 Page [527]
10/06/2015 [Bills] I move amendment No. 4:
In page 202, to delete lines 12 and 13.
While it may appear so, this is not a frivolous amendment. It concerns the removal of the first instance of the proclamation Magna Carta of 12 June 1215, just over 800 years ago. Is the Government marking the 800th anniversary...
Vol-240 Book-8 Page [527]
10/06/2015 [Bills] I assure the Senator that this is not what we are doing. The Senator's amendment seeks to remove an instrument of 1215 from the schedule of revoked instruments. The instrument was designed to publish the Magna Carta. Unfortunately, no text has been located during the research for this Bil...Vol-240 Book-8 Page [527]
10/06/2015 [Bills] I compliment the Minister of State and his advisers on the assiduity they have shown in pursuing the minutiae of law. In response to Senator Byrne, I believe it is well worthwhile to go through the law book and weed it out. That is excellent. Also, I make no apologies for submitting amend...Vol-240 Book-8 Page [528]
10/06/2015 [Bills] The Senator should not refer to people who are not here to defend themselves. The Senator's comment is not relevant either.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [528]
10/06/2015 [Bills] It is relevant. I persuaded the Minister for Finance to introduce a clause specifically designed to save Georgian buildings. I have finished with this and will not personally benefit from it at all.[Norris, David]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [528]
10/06/2015 [Bills] That is not relevant to this debate.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [528]
10/06/2015 [Bills] I just want to answer something mentioned by the Minister of State. I spent millions over 40 years. Anyone on a middle income could have done the same, if he or she took no holidays and had no other expenditure apart from this prime concern. I chose to do that, although I am not and never...Vol-240 Book-8 Page [529]
10/06/2015 [Bills] I recognise that.[Harris, Simon]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [529]
10/06/2015 [Bills] Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.Vol-240 Book-8 Page [529]
10/06/2015 [Bills] Question proposed: "That Schedule 2 stand part of the Bill."Vol-240 Book-8 Page [529]
10/06/2015 [Bills] I wish to put on record the extraordinary work that has been carried out by the Department in this revision of statutes. In a way, it is a pity these statutes will now be consigned to the dustbin of history, because many of these statutes, particularly those within Part 1, which relate to t...Vol-240 Book-8 Page [529]
10/06/2015 [Bills] I also have a particular interest in that period because of the long march of O'Sullivan Beare from Castletownbere through Glengarriff to County Leitrim where he joined up with the O'Rourkes. The hope was that they would then meet up with the Earl of Tyrone, Hugh O'Neill. A reference was m...Vol-240 Book-8
10/06/2015 [Bills] I thank the Seanad for its consideration of these amendments and Senator David Norris for tabling them. I share his view that it is worth stress-testing legislation, which is what we have done. There was a constructive debate in this and the other House on the matter. I share strongly the...Vol-240 Book-8 Page [529]
10/06/2015 [Bills] Question put and agreed to.Vol-240 Book-8 Page [530]
10/06/2015 [Bills] Title agreed to.Vol-240 Book-8 Page [530]
10/06/2015 [Bills] Bill reported without amendment.Vol-240 Book-8 Page [530]
10/06/2015 [Bills] I wish to make a comment. I completely agree that the Statute Book should be open to the public, but it must be very large, if it is a book. Is it in several volumes and is it available? There used to be a Stationery Office. Can the Statute Book be consulted and how is it consulted? Is ...Vol-240 Book-8 Page [530]
10/06/2015 [Bills] I will provide the Senator with some detail of those issues on Report Stage, but the short answer is that the Statute Book is available electronically and through the National Library of Ireland. One cannot go into a shop and buy a consolidated version of it. As the Senator rightly suggest...Vol-240 Book-8 Page [530]
10/06/2015 [Bills] If possible, will the Minister of State consult the National Library of Ireland to see how many times the Statute Book has been consulted? It would be rather interesting to discover what interest the people of Ireland take in their Statute Book and whether they consult it regularly. I must...Vol-240 Book-8 Page [530]
10/06/2015 [Bills] Shame on the Senator.[Sheahan, Tom]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [530]
10/06/2015 [Bills] Has the Senator looked at it?[Norris, David]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [530]
10/06/2015 [Bills] There is an app.[Harris, Simon]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [530]
10/06/2015 [Bills] I did not want Senator David Norris to take me as criticising his role in preserving Georgian Dublin, which is widely acknowledged and I accept as fact. I was merely pointing to the context of the proclamations dating from the 18th century, many of which were concerned with devastating pena...Vol-240 Book-8 Page [530]
10/06/2015 [Bills] There were proclamations on both sides. There was one for army Catholics.[Norris, David]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [530]
10/06/2015 [Bills] The debate is over.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [531]
10/06/2015 [Bills] I again acknowledge the massive effort made by the Civil Service which I have seen over many years. It is really important, but I would like to see some work done to consolidate legislation. We do it from time to time, but legislation tends to be inaccessible. A Bill one thinks is in forc...Vol-240 Book-8 Page [531]
10/06/2015 [Bills] When is it proposed to take Report Stage?[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [531]
10/06/2015 [Bills] Next Tuesday.[Sheahan, Tom]Vol-240 Book-8 Page [531]
10/06/2015 [Bills] Report Stage ordered for Tuesday, 16 June 2015.Vol-240 Book-8 Page [531]
10/06/2015 [Bills] Sitting suspended at 8 p.m. and resumed at 9 p.m.Vol-240 Book-8 Page [531]
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