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19/11/2019 [Bills] Before we commence, I remind Senators that a Senator may speak only once on Report Stage, except the proposer of an amendment who may reply to the discussion on the amendment.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [346]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I do not agree with the grouping of the amendments. I thought the Leas-Chathaoirleach was going to announce the grouping.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [346]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I have not started into that yet. The Senator is a little previous, if I may so.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [346]
19/11/2019 [Bills] It was a pre-emptive strike.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [346]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Amendment No. 1 is in the names of Senators McDowell, Boyhan, Craughwell and Marie-Louise O'Donnell, and arises out of committee proceedings. Amendments Nos. 1 and 3 are related and may be discussed together by agreement. Is that agreed?[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [346]
19/11/2019 [Bills] No. I do not agree with the grouping of the amendments.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [346]
19/11/2019 [Bills] What is the Senator's explanation for that?[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [347]
19/11/2019 [Bills] When the amendments are almost identical I will not speak a second time, in any case, and will just let them go through. I find it very confusing when there are a lot of amendments. It is very distracting. It does not help and it does not give good parliamentary scrutiny, particularly on ...Vol-268 Book-5 Page [347]
19/11/2019 [Bills] When amendments are almost identical, it is common practice in this House to group them.[Conway, Martin]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [347]
19/11/2019 [Bills] These amendments are similar and that is why they are together.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [347]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Correct.[Conway, Martin]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [347]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I know that[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [347]
19/11/2019 [Bills] The grouping will help the Senator-----[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [347]
19/11/2019 [Bills] It does not help me at all.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [347]
19/11/2019 [Bills] -----and he will not have to speak a second time.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [347]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I have registered my objection.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [347]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I do not hear the Senator objecting when-----[Conway, Martin]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [347]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Hold on. I cannot have all of the Senators speaking together.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [347]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I do not hear Senator Norris objecting when similar amendments are grouped with other Bills, so-----[Conway, Martin]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [347]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I have.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [347]
19/11/2019 [Bills] -----why has he on this occasion?[Conway, Martin]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [347]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I have actually.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [347]
19/11/2019 [Bills] It is a matter for the Chair. The Chair is in possession now.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [347]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Certainly.[Conway, Martin]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [347]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I am certainly anxious to avoid repetition.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [347]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Could I have a ruling on that? The normal practice in this House, as I know very well, is when a Member objects to the grouping it is not taken.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [347]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Provided it is reasonable.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [347]
19/11/2019 [Bills] It is reasonable. I have given a reasonable explanation. It is not up to the Clerk to decide what is and is not reasonable.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [347]
19/11/2019 [Bills] This simple grouping of amendments Nos. 1 and 3 make an identical change. I do not think it is one, with respect, that the Senator should be disagreeing on. I must insist, as Chair, that we proceed on a basis that is laid down here.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [347]
19/11/2019 [Bills] The Chair is violating tradition.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [348]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I do not believe-----[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [348]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Yes, you are.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [348]
19/11/2019 [Bills] He is not.[Conway, Martin]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [348]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I cannot have Senators arguing about it. I do not believe I am, with respect.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [348]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I am telling you that you are.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [348]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Let us see how we get on.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [348]
19/11/2019 [Bills] No.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [348]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Yes, I have to manage the debate. Does Senator McDowell want to speak on this one?[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [348]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I move amendment No. 1:
In page 7, line 10, after “of” where it firstly occurs to insert “advisory”.
Amendment No. 1 is in the names of myself, Senators Boyhan, Craughwell and Marie-Louise O'Donnell.[McDowell, Michael]
Vol-268 Book-5 Page [348]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I second the amendment.[Boyhan, Victor]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [348]
19/11/2019 [Bills] The purpose of this amendment is to insert into the Long Title of the Bill the word "advisory". In general terms, not too much attention is paid to the close test of the Long Title of a Bill. On this occasion, it is important because claims have been made for this legislation by one Member...Vol-268 Book-5 Page [348]
19/11/2019 [Bills] We have agreed to take amendments Nos. 1 and 3.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [348]
19/11/2019 [Bills] If the Chair is ruling that they be taken together-----[McDowell, Michael]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [348]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Because they are similar.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [349]
19/11/2019 [Bills] -----the same logic applies to the amendment No. 3 in my name.[McDowell, Michael]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [349]
19/11/2019 [Bills] It is the same thing.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [349]
19/11/2019 [Bills] It is not the same thing but it is similar.[McDowell, Michael]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [349]
19/11/2019 [Bills] It is the same logic. It is similar, yes.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [349]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Yes.[McDowell, Michael]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [349]
19/11/2019 [Bills] On that basis, we are proceeding. I want the House to be happy. Senator Norris wants to speak.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [349]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Could I just say, in response to this, the Leas-Chathaoirleach was prompted to say that my objections were not reasonable. They are extremely reasonable. I said that in a situation where there was real duplication I would not speak the second time. What could possibly be more reasonable t...Vol-268 Book-5 Page [349]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I agreed with the Senator totally. I want to avoid repetition and I think we all do.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [349]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Yes, exactly. I said I would do exactly the same but I objected to the grouping of the amendments because I find that-----[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [349]
19/11/2019 [Bills] It is the Senator's right to object to the ruling.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [349]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I know that.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [349]
19/11/2019 [Bills] The Senator could have attempted to divide the House but I am glad that he did not.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [349]
19/11/2019 [Bills] No.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [349]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Sorry, he could not do so on a grouping.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [349]
19/11/2019 [Bills] The whole point of this amendment is to include the word "advisory" and make it absolutely clear and specific that these recommendations are merely advisory, and that they are not legally binding on the Government, which is a very important point.
Article 34.1° of the Constitution provides...
Vol-268 Book-5 Page [349]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Does Senator Bacik wish to comment on amendments Nos. 1 and 3?[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [350]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I welcome the Minister to House and the opportunity to debate this important Bill. I listened with interest to what Senator Norris was saying and think he has a point, particularly in reference to some of the later groupings. I will certainly raise the same issue about concerns as to the n...Vol-268 Book-5 Page [350]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I am not convinced by the arguments put forward. We will be discussing the constitutional position under Article 35 at a later stage, as mentioned by Senator Norris, relating to the advice to the President and that arrangement as currently under the Constitution. It is quite clear, and we ...Vol-268 Book-5 Page [350]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I regret that I was out of the Chamber to deliver some papers after the last debate and have just returned so I hope the Minister will forgive me if I go through a number of concerns I have on amendments Nos. 1 and 3.[Craughwell, Gerard P.]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [350]
19/11/2019 [Bills] The Senator does not require forgiveness from me or anybody else.[Flanagan, Charles]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [350]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I know the Minister has spent some time considering the-----[Craughwell, Gerard P.]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [350]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Is it appropriate for the Chair to be prompting people to speak?[Conway, Martin]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [351]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I have ruled that Senator Craughwell has the floor.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [351]
19/11/2019 [Bills] We are speaking about the Long Title to the Bill and amendment No. 1 on page 7. We are putting in the word "advisory". We are seeking to amend the Title to include the word "advisory" for a number of reasons. As the Leas-Chathaoirleach knows, Article 43.1 of the Constitution provides that...Vol-268 Book-5 Page [351]
19/11/2019 [Bills] The Minister has made his position clear. Senator McDowell was the proposer of the amendment and might wish to respond.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [351]
19/11/2019 [Bills] [McDowell, Michael]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [351]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Is amendment No. 1 being pressed?[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [352]
19/11/2019 [Bills] It is.[McDowell, Michael]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [352]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I indicated that I wished to speak.[Boyhan, Victor]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [352]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Unfortunately for Senator Boyhan, Senator McDowell was responding, as was his right. Senator Boyhan would have had to get in before Senator McDowell. I asked earlier if there was any other speaker. I had to call on Senator McDowell last because he was responding.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [352]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I did indicate to speak.[Boyhan, Victor]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [352]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I missed the Senator.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [352]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I appreciate that. There is no problem.[Boyhan, Victor]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [352]
19/11/2019 [Bills] To be fair to Senator Boyhan, he did indicate.[Buttimer, Jerry]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [352]
19/11/2019 [Bills] It does not matter.[Boyhan, Victor]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [352]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I apologise because I missed Senator Boyhan.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [352]
19/11/2019 [Bills] That is no problem.[Boyhan, Victor]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [352]
19/11/2019 [Bills] That is unfortunate and I am sorry.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [352]
19/11/2019 [Bills] It is very unusual.[Buttimer, Jerry]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [352]
19/11/2019 [Bills] The Senator will be able to make his point.[McDowell, Michael]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [352]
19/11/2019 [Bills] The Senator will make the point when we get to the next amendment.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [352]
19/11/2019 [Bills] It is a recurring point.[Boyhan, Victor]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [352]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Senator Boyhan is not short of making a point.[Buttimer, Jerry]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [352]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I move amendment No. 2:
In page 7, line 12, after “be” to insert “a minority of the”.[McDowell, Michael]
Vol-268 Book-5 Page [353]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I second the amendment.[Craughwell, Gerard P.]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [353]
19/11/2019 [Bills] It has to be remarked on that we are joined by illustrious company from the Lower House.[Flanagan, Charles]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [353]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I am glad to see that.[McDowell, Michael]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [353]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Excuse me, my eyesight is not good. They are very welcome.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [353]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Perhaps the good Deputy might have some words of advice for us.[Craughwell, Gerard P.]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [353]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I would say my colleague, Senator O'Sullivan, is now under observation to see how he is going to deal with this.[McDowell, Michael]Vol-268 Book-5
19/11/2019 [Bills] I would say my colleague, Senator O'Sullivan, is now under observation to see how he is going to deal with this. The purpose of amendment No. 2 is to make it clear in the Long Title to the Bill that the lay members should be a minority of the commission as constituted. At the moment Member...Vol-268 Book-5 Page [353]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I am really just echoing the points made by Senator McDowell.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [354]
19/11/2019 [Bills] The Long Title to the Bill refers to making provision for persons of a lay character to be members of the commission. It is clear that the intention of the person who inspired the Bill was for there to be a majority of lay people on the commission. I do not think that is a good idea. The ...Vol-268 Book-5
19/11/2019 [Bills] I support the amendment, which proposes to insert the words "a minority of" to refer to the provision for persons of a lay character which is contained in the Title. Clearly, this is a crucial amendment because it is to be read in conjunction with the overall approach being taken to the Bil...Vol-268 Book-5 Page [354]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Hear, hear. Boris Ross.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [354]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Boris Johnson, indeed.[Bacik, Ivana]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [354]
19/11/2019 [Bills] No, Boris Ross.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [354]
19/11/2019 [Bills] That could catch on.[Bacik, Ivana]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [354]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Order, please. Senators should not refer to people who are not here to defend themselves.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [354]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Boris Ross is not here because he does not exist.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [354]
19/11/2019 [Bills] He lives in Stepaside.[Craughwell, Gerard P.]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [354]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I was referring to Michael Gove and his now infamous comment that "people in this country have had enough of experts" in the context of the Brexit debate. It is a comment that equally applies to the position being taken by the Government, driven by the Minister, Deputy Ross, in arguing for ...Vol-268 Book-5 Page [354]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I, too, support the amendment Senator McDowell and I tabled. Senator Bacik's point on expertise is one I thought about quite a lot in the context of this amendment. I frequently deal with a cardiologist and would hate to think that the people who appointed him knew nothing about medicine. ...Vol-268 Book-5 Page [355]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Acceptance of the amendment would represent a massive U-turn on the part of the Government and that will not happen. A thorough examination of the entire Bill of the type that we have gone through in the Seanad for the past year or more clearly shows the importance of the lay majority throu...Vol-268 Book-5 Page [356]
19/11/2019 [Bills] We have not finished with the Bill. It might be amended.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [356]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I am not going to engage in what would be a massive misrepresentation of this Bill, if the Long Title were to describe a minority of the members of the commission as being persons other than members of the Judiciary. I cannot accept it.[Flanagan, Charles]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [356]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I thank the Minister and call Senator McDowell.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [356]
19/11/2019 [Bills] To take the Minister's last point first, when we are tendering amendments to this legislation, they have to be coherent. If one is going to propose a minority of lay persons at a later point, and if one is going to propose amendment of the Bill by assiduously removing all the lay majority.....Vol-268 Book-5 Page [356]
19/11/2019 [Bills] It reminds me of the worst excesses of the French Revolution.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [356]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Exactly.[McDowell, Michael]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [356]
19/11/2019 [Bills] To quote Oscar Wilde.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [356]
19/11/2019 [Bills] The case for a large judicial appointments commission of the kind proposed, or as the text now stands, has not been made. It is excessively large and unwieldy. No good case has been made for having seven lay people and a chairperson, as envisaged by section 10(1)(j) and (k), constitute a m...Vol-268 Book-5 Page [356]
19/11/2019 [Bills] We will consider that fully when we come to that amendment.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [357]
19/11/2019 [Bills] We will come to it. I am just saying that Senator Bacik mentioned that the Minister has come up with an amendment, but the purpose of the amendment is to say that under no circumstances will a retired foreign judge ever serve on the Irish judicial appointments commission. We will come to i...Vol-268 Book-5 Page [357]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I cannot preclude it. With respect, while the Senator is referring to it, we are not debating it now and I do not want him to get into it now.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [357]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I do not want to get into the detail of it. I want to reserve my right to come back in detail about it. I will not push the matter any further except to say that-----[McDowell, Michael]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [357]
19/11/2019 [Bills] The Senator is entitled to make an incidental reference to it but he should perhaps leave it at that.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [358]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I will leave it at that. I signal in advance my opposition to it.[McDowell, Michael]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [358]
19/11/2019 [Bills] The Minister says that he is precluded from speaking again. I do not think he is. Can the Leas-Chathaoirleach not call him again?[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [358]
19/11/2019 [Bills] The Minister is not precluded. Senators may contribute only once other than the proposer.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [358]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Exactly. The Minister can speak again.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [358]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Senator McDowell is now-----[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [358]
19/11/2019 [Bills] The Minister can reply to Senator McDowell.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [358]
19/11/2019 [Bills] On a point of order, I am precluded from entering into a debate about something that is not before the House, namely amendment No. 7.[Flanagan, Charles]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [358]
19/11/2019 [Bills] The Minister is not precluded from speaking again. Senator McDowell has the floor and he is winding up on amendment No. 2.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [358]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I am abiding by the ruling of the Chair.[McDowell, Michael]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [358]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Abide with me, fast falls the eventide.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [358]
19/11/2019 [Bills] On that basis, I will end my reference to that amendment for the time being. The Minister has come in and said that it would be a major U-turn and, therefore, it cannot happen. The Chair told Senator Norris earlier that where reasons are not offered, groupings can take place whether he lik...Vol-268 Book-5 Page [358]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Amendment put.Vol-268 Book-5
19/11/2019 [Bills] The Seanad divided by electronic means.Vol-268 Book-5
19/11/2019 [Bills] I am advised that a Senator voted from the incorrect seat but it does not alter the result.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [358]
19/11/2019 [Bills] In order to clarify the confusion engendered by Senator McDowell's incorrect vote and to allow other Members to take part in the division, who may be anxiously waiting outside, chomping at the bit while waiting to get in to exercise their democratic right-----[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [358]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Is the Senator making a proposal?[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [358]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Under Standing Order 62(3)(b), I request that the division be taken again other than by electronic means.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [358]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I move amendment No. 3:
In page 7, line 14, after "of" where it firstly occurs to insert "advisory".[McDowell, Michael]
Vol-268 Book-5 Page [359]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I second the amendment.[Boyhan, Victor]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [359]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I move amendment No. 4:
In page 7, after line 30, to insert the following:
“(3) An order made under subsection (2) shall not have effect unless a resolution approving the order is passed by each House of the Oireachtas within 28 days of the making of the said order.”.[McDowell, Michael]
Vol-268 Book-5 Page [360]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I second the amendment.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [360]
19/11/2019 [Bills] The proposal here is to insert a new subsection (3) into the commencement section, that is, section 1, on page 7. The purpose of this amendment is to give this House and the other House a second chance after the next election when, it is hoped, the Government will be free of some of its pre...Vol-268 Book-5 Page [360]
19/11/2019 [Bills] If I am to believe what I read in the papers, the only obstacle, the only fly in the ointment, in recent times has been the delaying campaign fought by one Minister against judicial appointments being made. All I can do is rely on the titbits I see in the newspaper concerning objections, th...Vol-268 Book-5
19/11/2019 [Bills] That is a threat.[Flanagan, Charles]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [362]
19/11/2019 [Bills] No. I am saying to you-----[McDowell, Michael]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [362]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Through the Chair, please.[Wilson, Diarmuid]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [362]
19/11/2019 [Bills] -----that my observation is not a threat. I am making the very simple point that an intelligent parliament, confronted with the opportunity to say "No" to the Bill, would stick with the current regime which is working very well and to which nobody is objecting and not waste €500,000 to esta...Vol-268 Book-5 Page [362]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Quango.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [362]
19/11/2019 [Bills] -----quango and delay the process. The aim of amendment No. 4 in my name is simply to give whoever will be in office after the next general election the opportunity to say if this provision was wise in the first place or the result of the Independent Alliance's insistence on its insertion i...Vol-268 Book-5 Page [362]
19/11/2019 [Bills] He has an outstanding record.[Conway, Martin]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [363]
19/11/2019 [Bills] An outstanding-----[McDowell, Michael]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [363]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Please, Senator Conway. I will afford the Senator an opportunity to comment.[Wilson, Diarmuid]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [363]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I am agreeing with Senator Conway in making that unruly interjection. The Minister does have an outstanding record. The national interest would be served by amending the Bill to give the Houses of the Oireachtas a veto in deciding whether the legislation should ever be commenced.
My fina...
Vol-268 Book-5 Page [363]
19/11/2019 [Bills] If this Bill came into operation, it would require positive decisions by the Oireachtas, even for the appointment of lay members of the commission. The Oireachtas will have an opportunity to approve or disapprove the members of the commission. I am making a heartfelt plea to the Minister t...Vol-268 Book-5
19/11/2019 [Bills] Senator McDowell is right. While this kind of resolution is a little unusual, this legislation calls for such a resolution. The amendment states: "An order made under subsection (2) shall not have effect unless a resolution approving the order is passed by each House of the Oireachtas with...Vol-268 Book-5 Page [363]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I commend Senator McDowell for coming up with a very practical proposal in this amendment. As he and Senator Norris have said, it is an unusual amendment, but this is an unusual Bill, of which we are all very conscious. It seems eminently practical to give the Oireachtas another chance to ...Vol-268 Book-5 Page [363]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Is Senator Conway anxious to comment on this?[Wilson, Diarmuid]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [364]
19/11/2019 [Bills] No. I was only agreeing with Senator McDowell's observation on the quality, calibre and talent of the judicial appointments the Minister has made.[Conway, Martin]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [364]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I agree with my colleagues. It strikes me that if - God help us - this Bill gets through and is passed in the lifetime of this Government, whoever is in government the next time around may want to revisit it.[Craughwell, Gerard P.]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [364]
19/11/2019 [Bills] The Senator might even be part of the Government himself.[Flanagan, Charles]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [364]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I might, or the Minister might be part of the Opposition that wants to condemn this Bill.[Craughwell, Gerard P.]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [364]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I am standing by it.[Flanagan, Charles]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [364]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Anecdotally, I would say one thing for the Minister.[Craughwell, Gerard P.]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [364]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Deal with the amendment.[Wilson, Diarmuid]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [364]
19/11/2019 [Bills] He is the only member of Fine Gael who has told me that he or she is 100% behind this Bill. That speaks volumes. I admire the Minister's strength and courage in constantly coming here. After the life of this Government, the next Government may have a very different view on this issue. Wh...Vol-268 Book-5 Page [364]
19/11/2019 [Bills] No more self promotion.[Gallagher, Robbie]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [364]
19/11/2019 [Bills] We need to allow for a second look at this Bill in the lifetime of the next Government. I support my colleague and hence, I am a signatory to the amendment.[Craughwell, Gerard P.]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [364]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Seeing as Deputy Flanagan is still the Minister in this Government, I ask him to comment on the amendment.[Wilson, Diarmuid]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [364]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I thank the Acting Chairman for introducing a measure of reality into this debate, because what we are dealing with here is a breathtaking departure from all precedent. There are no circumstances under which a piece of legislation such as the one we are debating can be dependent upon the fu...Vol-268 Book-5 Page [365]
19/11/2019 [Bills] The Minister has again provided the short rationale that this is an unprecedented move, which must therefore be rejected. The argument was made earlier that-----[McDowell, Michael]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [365]
19/11/2019 [Bills] A U-turn.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [365]
19/11/2019 [Bills] -----any U-turn had to be rejected in principle and by definition. We are in a very peculiar situation. The Taoiseach has said that he favours holding a general election in May 2020. If this Bill passes through this House in the next number of weeks, goes back to Dáil Éireann and is passe...Vol-268 Book-5 Page [365]
19/11/2019 [Bills] All I am saying is that in those circumstances it makes sense to give what I propose to what will, by definition, be an incoming Government. It will be in office before the Bill is ever commenced. The Minister has to acknowledge that he will not have it up and running before May. That is ...Vol-268 Book-5
19/11/2019 [Bills] He might. He would if he applied kryptonite.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [365]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Even with kryptonite in abundant supply and the Minister wearing his underpants outside his uniform-----[McDowell, Michael]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [365]
19/11/2019 [Bills] What a vision. I will not be able to sleep tonight thinking of it. How wonderful.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [365]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Please, colleagues.[Wilson, Diarmuid]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [365]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Even if that were to happen, the commission will not be in existence before the next general election.[McDowell, Michael]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [365]
19/11/2019 [Bills] To infinity and beyond.[Craughwell, Gerard P.]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [365]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I strongly believe the Bill would not have been introduced in its current form were it not for a happenstance, a peculiar obsession on the part of one or two individuals who have had leverage over the Government. That being the case, a new Government will be duty-bound to ask whether the......Vol-268 Book-5 Page [365]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I am reluctant to prolong the debate, but I want to respond briefly, having regard to the vehemence and determination of Senator McDowell in making his argument. I again remind Senators that the content of the amendment would, in effect, subvert the wish of the Dáil and the Seanad. If it w...Vol-268 Book-5 Page [367]
19/11/2019 [Bills] What any future Government might or might not do is a matter for the composition of the Dáil and Seanad on that occasion. I look forward to being a Member of the next Dáil and to being joined by Deputies Catherine Noone, Martin Conway-----Vol-268 Book-5
19/11/2019 [Bills] And Senator Neale Richmond.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [367]
19/11/2019 [Bills] -----Gabrielle McFadden and others.[Flanagan, Charles]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [367]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Allow the Minister to make his point.[Wilson, Diarmuid]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [367]
19/11/2019 [Bills] As one of the others, I am very happy-----[McDowell, Michael]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [367]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Let that Dáil then decide on its priority legislation. I wish Senator Craughwell well in awaiting the phone call but I do not think it will happen.[Flanagan, Charles]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [367]
19/11/2019 [Bills] It did previously.[Craughwell, Gerard P.]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [367]
19/11/2019 [Bills] With the greatest of respect, the Senator is no Jim Dooge.[Flanagan, Charles]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [367]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I did not want foreign affairs.[Craughwell, Gerard P.]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [367]
19/11/2019 [Bills] The Minister did not interrupt anybody and is about to conclude his point.[Wilson, Diarmuid]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [367]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I will conclude my point by issuing a direct challenge to Senator McDowell. I challenge him to join us in the next Dáil and then exercise the power he is now trying to impose upon the current Seanad. I ask him to stand in Dublin Bay South and put his name forward for election to the Lower ...Vol-268 Book-5 Page [367]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I did not say the Minister did not have the votes.[Craughwell, Gerard P.]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [367]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I will not accede to the content of the amendment having regard to the fact that it is obvious to anybody in this House if he or she would care to admit it that this is, at best, a circumvention of the long-standing practice and procedure and the Standing Orders of this House and the Lower H...Vol-268 Book-5 Page [367]
19/11/2019 [Bills] No, it is not. Senator McDowell has shown an existing precedent. The precedent is there.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [368]
19/11/2019 [Bills] -----on First, Second, Committee and Report Stages and enactment of the legislation. When I foretell all the Senators who will be in the next Dáil and the next Government-----[Flanagan, Charles]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [368]
19/11/2019 [Bills] The Minister can include me out.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [368]
19/11/2019 [Bills] ------I am sure it was obvious to Senator Norris that I did leave him out.[Flanagan, Charles]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [368]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Of course, he did because my home is in the Seanad.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [368]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Senator Norris will probably be here-----[Flanagan, Charles]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [368]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I hope to be.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [368]
19/11/2019 [Bills] -----filibustering and frustrating, which is something he does best.[Flanagan, Charles]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [368]
19/11/2019 [Bills] It is my role in life.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [368]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I cannot allow Senator McDowell back in.[Wilson, Diarmuid]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [368]
19/11/2019 [Bills] On a point of order, the Minister made two speeches-----[McDowell, Michael]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [368]
19/11/2019 [Bills] He is entitled to do so. The proposer may only speak twice and all others may only speak once.[Wilson, Diarmuid]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [368]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I just wanted to say that I will consider his kind invitation to join him in the Dáil.[McDowell, Michael]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [368]
19/11/2019 [Bills] That is the headline in tomorrow's edition of The Irish Times.[Boyhan, Victor]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [368]
19/11/2019 [Bills] It is my job to be balanced and ensure that everybody gets fair play in this House.[Wilson, Diarmuid]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [368]
19/11/2019 [Bills] The Acting Chairman is doing a very good job.[Gallagher, Robbie]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [368]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I noticed the Minister only foretold that people who were sitting on his left hand side might become Deputies.[Wilson, Diarmuid]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [368]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I am happy here.[Boyhan, Victor]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [368]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I would like to mention the potential Deputies Robbie Gallagher and McDowell.[Wilson, Diarmuid]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [368]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Is the Acting Chairman ruling me out?[Craughwell, Gerard P.]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [368]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Is Senator McDowell pressing the amendment?[Wilson, Diarmuid]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [368]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Senator Craughwell is reserving his position because he is still available for the Presidency.[McDowell, Michael]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [369]
19/11/2019 [Bills] He is going to Europe.[Conway, Martin]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [369]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I may run in Stepaside.[Craughwell, Gerard P.]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [369]
19/11/2019 [Bills] To quote a famous former Member of the Lower House, if in doubt, leave him. Is Senator McDowell pressing the amendment?[Wilson, Diarmuid]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [369]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Yes.[McDowell, Michael]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [369]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Amendment put.Vol-268 Book-5
19/11/2019 [Bills] The Seanad divided by electronic means.Vol-268 Book-5
19/11/2019 [Bills] One Member voted twice and I believe Senator Norris has owned up to that.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [369]
19/11/2019 [Bills] In order to clarify my voting position, I call for a walk-through vote.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [369]
19/11/2019 [Bills] In the interest of transparency.[Gallagher, Robbie]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [369]
19/11/2019 [Bills] I thought the Senator owned up to it.[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [369]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Yes I did, absolutely. Mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa.[Norris, David]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [369]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Debate adjourned.Vol-268 Book-5
19/11/2019 [Bills] When is it proposed to sit again?[An Leas-Chathaoirleach]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [370]
19/11/2019 [Bills] Maidin amárach ar 10.30.[Buttimer, Jerry]Vol-268 Book-5 Page [370]
19/11/2019 [Bills] The Seanad adjourned at 9.40 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 20 November 2019.Vol-268 Book-5
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