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03/07/2018 [Order of Business] The Order of Business is No. 1, motion re Employment Equality Act 1998 (section 12) (reservation of vocational training places) Order 2018 - referral to committee, to be taken on conclusion of the Order of Business; No. 2, Judicial Appointments Commission Bill 2017 - Committee St...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [201]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I have raised my first matter previously in the House and it is deeply connected to the lack of supply in the housing market, which I also speak of on a consistent basis in the House. There is a crisis in the construction sector now because of a lack of skilled construction work...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [202]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I wish to raise a matter that is due to be discussed later. I will not go into substantive detail. I refer to the Judicial Appointments Commission Bill 2017. The Group of States against Corruption, GRECO, was established in 1999 by the Council of Europe to monitor states' comp...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [202]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Hear, hear.[Norris, David]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [203]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I understand that it makes some damning remarks. I do not want this GRECO report to come back and haunt us. We know the Government has sight of the GRECO report. How can we proceed with legislation when we know that the Government is withholding the report? I suggest that thi...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [203]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Hear, hear.[Norris, David]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [203]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] -----until the GRECO report is published by the Government. The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Ross, would have stood up in the Lower House to demand accountability and transparency but today I challenge him. He is aware, like all Ministers, of the GRECO repo...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [203]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I welcome the recent announcement regarding the traditional harvesting rights of the seaweed harvesters along the western counties, including my county of Mayo. From the very beginning of the lifetime of this Seanad, it is an issue we have fought hard to put right. We had major...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [203]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Go raibh maith agat féin agus anois, an Seanadóir Colette Kelleher.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [203]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I thank the Cathaoirleach for helping me out on a matter that I shall not divulge to the House today.[Kelleher, Colette]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [204]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Come on.[Devine, Máire]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [204]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Why mention it?[O'Donnell, Marie-Louise]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [204]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] The Senator cannot say that.[Craughwell, Gerard P.]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [204]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Why mention it?[O'Donnell, Marie-Louise]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [204]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Some men will go to any lengths to stay at home to watch the World Cup. That was why my husband smashed his elbow on the road in Crosshaven recently and I am getting some leave, courtesy of the Cathaoirleach, for which I thank him. I assure Senators that my husband is on the me...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [204]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I propose an amendment to the Order of Business that we would not take Committee Stage of the Judicial Appointments Commission Bill 2017 today. On behalf of the Labour Party group, I seek to put forward again the position that Senator Humphreys and myself put forward last Thursd...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [204]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Hear, hear.[Norris, David]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [204]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] The approach has made a mockery of the legislative process. We are being asked to legislate in the dark without sight of a report, significant excerpts of which have already been leaked into the public domain. I want to refer colleagues who may as yet be undecided as to what wa...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [204]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Hear, hear.[Craughwell, Gerard P.]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [205]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] -----to respond to these very serious criticisms-----[Bacik, Ivana]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [205]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Hear, hear.[Norris, David]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [205]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] -----by the Council of Europe's Group of States against Corruption, GRECO.
Finally, I agree with Senator Boyhan that the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport would be the first person to jump up and down in disgust if a Government, of which he was not part, tried to bring ...
Vol-259 Book-4 Page [205]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I wish to raise the issue of convicted sex offenders travelling from Britain to start new lives in Ireland. In my area, two sex offenders were caught in Trim and Athboy, County Meath. Last week, a man was discovered to be waiting for two 14-year old girls that he had groomed on...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [205]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Was he English?[Norris, David]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [205]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] The man was caught by a group of citizens.[Butler, Ray]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [205]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Was he English?[Norris, David]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [205]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Yes.[Butler, Ray]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [205]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Senator Butler please, without interruptions.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [205]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] One can listen online to a recording of what he had posted online. His postings were sick beyond belief. Why does the State not prevent such convicted monsters from entering this country and starting new lives here? They should be deported back to where they came from. We nee...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [205]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I support Senator Boyhan's remarks on GRECO and, equally, Senator Ardagh's comments, particularly on BusConnect. I firmly believe that it is important that people consider the matter.
I wish to raise an issue that has been talked about a lot recently. I have in my hand a copy...
Vol-259 Book-4 Page [206]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Does the Senator wish to bring the review forward?[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [206]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] He does, yes.[Humphreys, Kevin]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [206]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I do not; quite the opposite.[Horkan, Gerry]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [206]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I formally second it.[Nash, Gerald]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [206]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I am just advising people on the record of the House that this is what was agreed by both parties, and my party has stuck to it. We have done our budget so far, as we said we would, and we have facilitated the Fine Gael-led minority Government of 50 Fine Gael Deputies, with eigh...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [206]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I am sure the Leader will reaffirm the Senator's view. I call Senator McDowell.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [206]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I, too, wish to mention the GRECO report, without trespassing on the debate on the Judicial Appointments Commission Bill. This is a Council of Europe report and one version of it has been considered. The Government's proposals have changed somewhat since the first report was pu...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [207]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Hear, hear.[Norris, David]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [207]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] It is simply a question of timing. There is no need for us to continue playing blind man's buff on legislation if this report is being kept secret. What is the point of the Government sitting on the report and not releasing it when it would inform and advise us on what we shoul...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [207]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I wish to let people know that the Pride parade is on in Limerick at 2 p.m. on Saturday. We would welcome anybody who wishes to come along to support it. It is meeting at Merchant's Quay in Limerick.
I wish to raise is a concern about University Hospital Limerick and the repo...
Vol-259 Book-4 Page [207]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I welcome the safe location of the school children and their coach in a cave in Thailand. The drama is still unfolding and there are difficulties ahead but we wish them a full and successful recovery.
I also wish to raise BusConnects. I attended the briefing yesterday and app...
Vol-259 Book-4 Page [208]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] [Ruane, Lynn]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [208]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I wish to raise an issue on mental health services in County Roscommon. I attended a meeting last Friday afternoon on two facilities in County Roscommon, the Rosalie unit in Castlerea and the Ballaghaderreen mental health day centre. I am extremely frustrated at the way in whic...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [208]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I second Senator Ivana Bacik's amendment to the Order of Business. We mentioned the word "GRECO" and that goes over the public's heads. What is GRECO? I think it is worthwhile to state that GRECO is the Council of Europe's Group of States against Corruption. We know that ever...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [209]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Bravo. Take an Oscar.[Buttimer, Jerry]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [209]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I have just come in from another gorgeous day outside. We have seen beautiful sunshine and blue skies for some time now. People have been loving and hating it for a variety of reasons. The real issue that brings the good weather to my attention is anti-social behaviour.
I ho...
Vol-259 Book-4 Page [209]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Water charges would solve that.[Norris, David]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [210]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I speak in support of Senators Bacik, Humphreys, Boyhan and McDowell. We are discussing a Bill coming before this House that is supposed to lead to the open and transparent appointment of judges, yet there is a report that is closed and is not available to any of us before we d...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [210]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Does Senator Bacik want to brief Senator Craughwell?[Buttimer, Jerry]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [210]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] One can only amend the Order of Business today. One has 24 hours to bring forward this GRECO report. Let us all sit down and have a read of the report and see why it is so God damning of the Bill that the Government is trying to ram through this House against the wishes not jus...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [210]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Has anyone heard of the likes of today?[Buttimer, Jerry]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [210]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] -----and let us read this report. The Government is sitting on the report and will not release it because it knows that if it did nobody could support the Bill. The Leader knows that. He should release the report and prove me wrong.[Craughwell, Gerard P.]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [211]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I want to make two points. I have been making the first one here most afternoons. It is about the fact that we now have a new poor in Ireland. If one earns anything between €30,000 and €60,000 in Ireland and if one happens to be in the area of trades, teaching, health, retail ...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [211]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] They also had a condition attached to their support. They said they would vote with the Government if the sentencing guidelines were included in the Judicial Council Bill 2017.[O'Donnell, Marie-Louise]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [211]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Has the Senator suddenly developed a conscience?[Ó Donnghaile, Niall]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [211]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] What is happening to the Bill now is that it is collapsing. Senator Michael McDowell and the Independent group are entirely correct, as is the Labour Party, in respect of the GRECO report. We will see the report and if it is clean and freshwater, which it is, we will vote accor...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [211]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Unfortunately clear fresh water is getting scarce.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [211]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I like it.[Devine, Máire]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [211]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I welcome-----[Feighan, Frank]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [212]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I am a salt water man.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [212]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I welcome the very recent decision, published only a few minutes ago, of the Unite trade union in the United Kingdom. It has agreed to be open to the possibility of a popular vote being held on any deal, depending on political circumstances. It is a bit vague but it is welcome....Vol-259 Book-4 Page [212]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I want to raise the issue of hate crime legislation and the need for it. In the week before Pride there was a horrific homophobic attack on a couple in Portlaoise. On Pride weekend there was brick thrown through the window of the PantiBar. A Brazilian actor, Rodrigo Ternevoy, ...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [212]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I support my colleagues, Senators Boyhan, McDowell, Bacik, Humphreys and Craughwell, who have spoken of the critical importance of us having sight of the GRECO report before we discuss the Judicial Appointments Commission Bill 2017. It is madness to have a discussion without ful...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [212]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I wish to raise the issue of psychiatric services for those under 18 years of age on the north side of Cork city. I came across a number of cases in the last few weeks in which people under 18 who require access to a psychiatric consultant have had huge difficulty because that p...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [212]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] According to figures that were released recently, over 500,000 people are waiting for outpatient appointments and 80,000 people are waiting for inpatient day procedures. These figures are at an all-time high. The National Association of General Practitioners is encouraging its ...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [213]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I will be supporting the Labour Party amendment in respect of the Judicial Appointments Commission Bill 2017. As I said to Senator Humphreys just now, just because it is a Labour Party motion does not mean it is a bad motion. In fact, it is a very important motion.[Mullen, Róná...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [213]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Now who is doing a deal with the devil?[Buttimer, Jerry]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [214]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] The problems with the process being used to advance this Bill have been well rehearsed by my colleagues in this House. There are also problems with the content of the Bill. Given that we rely on retired judges and lawyers in many spheres - they are involved in chairing referend...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [214]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I call Senator Ó Ríordáin.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [214]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] On a point of order-----[O'Donnell, Marie-Louise]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [214]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] No, please. I cannot allow people in. I gave everyone a fair chance. In fairness, I left Senator O'Donnell in at a certain slot.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [214]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I think it might have been my slot too.[Ó Donnghaile, Niall]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [214]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I was allowing her to jump the queue to a certain extent, but she took three minutes rather than two minutes. I am trying to be fair to everyone. If there is an issue, it can be raised later.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [214]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I ask the Leader to put on the record of the House the exact nature of the relationship between this Government and Deputy Michael Lowry, who has a criminal conviction for tax irregularities.[Ó Ríordáin, Aodhán]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [214]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] He is a conscientious taxpayer, according to the judge.[Norris, David]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [214]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I found the Taoiseach's comments about this relationship at the weekend quite disturbing. I ask the Leader to inform the House exactly what support arrangements the Government has with Deputy Lowry, and indeed to publish those details. We would all be interested to know the exa...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [214]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I am glad the Senator is paying attention.[Horkan, Gerry]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [215]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Surely that agreement, which considers water to be more important than anything else, especially housing and child poverty, contains all the answers to the water shortages and water problems we are having in this country at present.[Ó Ríordáin, Aodhán]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [215]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I support Senator Bacik's amendment, on which various Senators, including Senators Boyhan, Norris and Humphreys, have spoken. It is important for us to get sight of this report before the Bill moves on. We are not preventing the Bill from moving on. As we consider the Bill, we...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [215]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I want to touch on an issue that is linked to Brexit. It is an example of an opportunity that exists despite Brexit. Many multinational companies are seeking English-speaking European bases after Brexit. Many companies in Canada, which possibly has the fastest growing multinat...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [215]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I thank the 25 Members for their contributions on the Order of Business.
I will begin with Senator Ardagh and the important point she raised regarding apprenticeships. I wish to remind Senator Ardagh that Government has again announced a further €8 million investment in appren...
Vol-259 Book-4 Page [215]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] That was ten years ago but we still hear about it every day. Move on.[Clifford-Lee, Lorraine]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [216]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] We have a long day and we are running out of time.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [216]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I remind Senator Clifford-Lee that we are still putting the pieces together from the country that her party wrecked. Apprenticeships fell by-----[Buttimer, Jerry]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [216]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Brian Lenihan left Fine Gael a very good plan.[Clifford-Lee, Lorraine]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [216]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Does Senator Clifford-Lee want to do the Order of Business?[Buttimer, Jerry]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [216]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I would love to be roped in by Fine Gael.[Clifford-Lee, Lorraine]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [216]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] We do not need a party political broadcast.[Norris, David]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [216]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I had to listen to all Members giving their particular broadcasts for an hour, so I am going to reply with my particular broadcast.[Buttimer, Jerry]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [216]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Allow the Leader to respond.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [216]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Apprenticeships fell by 80% but Government is committed to increasing the trend in this area of training and education. Of course we should remember the role Fianna Fáil played in regard to FÁS as well. Then again, Senator Clifford-Lee might get into hysterics again.
Governme...
Vol-259 Book-4 Page [216]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] We did not even know what the amendments were.[Humphreys, Kevin]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [217]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I am not going to get into a war of words with Senator Humphreys.[Buttimer, Jerry]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [217]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] It is a fact. We did not know what the amendments were.[Humphreys, Kevin]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [217]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] The clear water that Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell is relishing and seeking will be fully transparent in the debate on Committee Stage.[Buttimer, Jerry]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [217]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I am not relishing it today.[O'Donnell, Marie-Louise]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [217]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Like Senator Conway-Walsh, I congratulate all involved in harvesting of seaweed. I will commit to giving the debate in due course.
I will accept Senator Kelleher's important Bill and I commend her on her work on the issue. In particular, I commend her on her contribution this...
Vol-259 Book-4 Page [217]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] We will have to wait until the Taoiseach comes back from the U2 concert in New York.[Clifford-Lee, Lorraine]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [218]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] There must be a good deal of heatstroke on the far side of the House this afternoon. The Senators are much exercised this afternoon. They must really want an election.[Buttimer, Jerry]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [218]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] We are ready.[Clifford-Lee, Lorraine]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [218]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I am sure Senator Clifford-Lee is ready.[Buttimer, Jerry]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [218]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] It is in our hands.[Humphreys, Kevin]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [218]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] This is a Fine Gael gimmick now.[O'Connor, Jennifer Murnane]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [218]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Calm down, everyone.[Horkan, Gerry]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [218]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I am absolutely independent in the Chair and I try to display that.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [218]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] You do it well, a Chathaoirligh.[Ó Donnghaile, Niall]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [218]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I wish to join with Senator Byrne in congratulating the organisers of Limerick Pride next weekend. I wish them well. I share with her the concerns she has raised regarding the condition of University Hospital Limerick notwithstanding the investment by Government. Senator Byrne...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [218]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Could we push the public consultation out, away from the holiday period?[Devine, Máire]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [218]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] That is not a matter for me, it is a matter for Dublin Bus, the NTA and the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport. I am sure we can articulate that viewpoint.[Buttimer, Jerry]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [218]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] The Minister is busy.[Ó Ríordáin, Aodhán]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [219]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] He is engaged with judicial appointments.[Horkan, Gerry]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [219]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I commend Senator Ruane for her briefing today, and I apologise that I was not able to get to it. I think it is an important piece of work that she is undertaking. I also think that Deputy Catherine Byrne is a very proactive Minister of State at the Department, as was Senator Ó...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [219]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] He is a spare wheel rather than a wheel under the car.[Mullen, Rónán]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [220]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] The Senator made reference to a number of topics pertaining to child poverty including housing and water. I do not think one can gauge the importance of an issue like child poverty in housing or water by the number of words in a programme for Government. Senator Ó Ríordáin was ...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [220]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Sorry, I need to clarify. The Leader has not answered my question. I asked him about the relationship between Deputy Michael Lowry and this Government. He has not answered the question.[Ó Ríordáin, Aodhán]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [220]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] That is a Dáil matter. He has answered the question. If there is a voting arrangement, that is a matter for the other House, not for this one.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [220]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh.[Buttimer, Jerry]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [220]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] I think he has been very fair.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [220]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Senator Ó Domhnaill raised the very important issue of foreign direct investment, and the need to have joined-up thinking. I would be happy to have the Minister for Business, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Heather Humphreys, come before the House. It is an important issue, n...Vol-259 Book-4 Page [221]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Senator Colette Kelleher has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business: "That No. 14 be taken before No. 1". It has been seconded by Senator Ruane. The Leader has indicated he is prepared to accept the amendment.[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [221]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Senator Ivana Bacik has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business: "That No. 2, Judicial Appointments Commission Bill 2017 - Committee Stage, not be taken now." Is the amendment being pressed?[An Cathaoirleach]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [221]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Yes.[Bacik, Ivana]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [221]
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] [Bacik, Ivana]Vol-259 Book-4
03/07/2018 [Order of Business] Under Standing Order 62(3)(b) I request that the division be taken again other than by electronic means.[Norris, David]Vol-259 Book-4 Page [222]
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